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Old 10-10-2008, 04:41 PM   #301
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Question: How does everyone fell about civil unions that allow for the same rights as a married couple with out the "married" title?
My main reaction to them is, What the heck is the point? How on earth is whatever you think you're protecting society from going to be stopped by merely renaming the rights you're otherwise conferring?
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Old 10-10-2008, 04:44 PM   #302
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My main reaction to them is, What the heck is the point? How on earth is whatever you think you're protecting society from going to be stopped by merely renaming the rights you're otherwise conferring?
Well said.
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Old 10-10-2008, 04:46 PM   #303
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married people: why did you want to get married in the first palce?

singles: do you want to get married? if so, why?

maybe we do need to have a discussion about marriage, what it means, what it does for the individual and for society, and what it does for our society.

i am convinced that such a discussion will make the argument for same sex marriage even more convincing.
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Old 10-10-2008, 05:55 PM   #304
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My main reaction to them is, What the heck is the point? How on earth is whatever you think you're protecting society from going to be stopped by merely renaming the rights you're otherwise conferring?

I guess it depends on what side of the fence you are standing on. From the side for same-sex marriage, I mainly hear that it is about the "rights". Property, hospital visits, etc. This is a major argument I have heard made. I hear this more than the emotional attachments of marriage. It seems it is more about the legal aspects. If civil unions give you this, whats the difference.

When you say "protecting society", it seems you are trying to look at if from point of view of the people that do not support this position. I dont see how 'protecting society" comes into play either way. People were gay in the past, they are guys here today and they will be part of our countries future. This issues is not going ot have any effect on that basic fact.


That being said, how do you all feel about your guys Obama and Biden not supporting gay marriage?
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Old 10-10-2008, 06:00 PM   #305
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It seems it is more about the legal aspects. If civil unions give you this, whats the difference.
Three words: Separate but equal.

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That being said, how do you all feel about your guys Obama and Biden not supporting gay marriage?
It pisses me off.
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Old 10-10-2008, 06:01 PM   #306
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Martha, I even sent you a private IM stating that several weeks ago. I never got a response. Oh well
I'm still so blind-sided by your unexpected venom at times, that I still don't know what my response is.
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Old 10-10-2008, 06:03 PM   #307
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I think Obama and Biden are backwards for not supporting it.

Sadly in your country this seems a position one must have.

I am not an American citizen and I will never be one (I'd have to give up one of my other citizenships for it and I have no interest in doing so). Mercifully where I come from, gays and lesbians are free to marry and even our right wing parties have faced reality and are no longer making an issue of it.
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Old 10-10-2008, 06:08 PM   #308
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I guess it depends on what side of the fence you are standing on. From the side for same-sex marriage, I mainly hear that it is about the "rights". Property, hospital visits, etc. This is a major argument I have heard made. I hear this more than the emotional attachments of marriage. It seems it is more about the legal aspects. If civil unions give you this, whats the difference.
No, it doesn't depend on what side you are... The reason you hear the legal arguments and not the emotional is because that's what the opposition has widdled it down to. They say well I don't care if you live together or love each other, so at the end of the day the fight is for equality of rights. Right now civil unions don't give you full equailty.

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When you say "protecting society", it seems you are trying to look at if from point of view of the people that do not support this position. I dont see how 'protecting society" comes into play either way. People were gay in the past, they are guys here today and they will be part of our countries future. This issues is not going ot have any effect on that basic fact.
I'm glad you are wise enough to see this. Then if there is nothing to protect why are you on the fence? If it won't protect society, then why protect the word? Seems pretty silly to me.

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That being said, how do you all feel about your guys Obama and Biden not supporting gay marriage?
Obama was one of the first to place in his platform that he wants full equality between civil unions and marriage, the only difference will be the word. I think the concept of if the church wants to provide gay marriage it should be left up to them, you can't force them to marry two people they don't want to, and why would you want to get married in a church that doesn't want you... their loss.
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Old 10-10-2008, 06:18 PM   #309
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Mercifully where I come from, gays and lesbians are free to marry and even our right wing parties have faced reality and are no longer making an issue of it.

And no polygamists have demanded the right? No one has wanted to marry a sheep? The children are all fine? Society moves along ok?
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Old 10-10-2008, 06:25 PM   #310
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Mercifully where I come from, gays and lesbians are free to marry and even our right wing parties have faced reality and are no longer making an issue of it.
That's impossible.

Your country must be less than ideal to raise children.

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Old 10-10-2008, 07:39 PM   #311
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I'm still so blind-sided by your unexpected venom at times, that I still don't know what my response is.
Venom? You have got to be kidding? Now I wounder why I even bothered.
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Old 10-10-2008, 07:41 PM   #312
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married people: why did you want to get married?
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Old 10-10-2008, 07:45 PM   #313
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I'm not sure any answers I could give would clarify much, because I always conceived of getting married in light of a religious worldview. I was never the type to sit around fantasizing about 'my wedding day,' but to the extent that I envisioned it beforehand, I always pictured a synagogue ceremony, having a normal observant household together, things like that. The specific rights and benefits conferred through a marriage license are in practice necessary tools for fully implementing that vision, but obviously that's not where the cultural value, the ritual value, of marriage really comes from. It's a voluntarily undertaken rite of passage to a new, jointly held role within your community, usually entered into with your friends and families and colleagues gathered all around you. For many it changes relatively little about the day-to-day facts of one's life, at least in the short-term; for most it does effect a change in how you understand yourself, your social commitments and responsibilities, and your future with your partner. For most that commitment makes you stronger, increases your satisfaction in life and paradoxically makes you more responsible (paradoxical, because at the same time your fate and the consequences of most everything you do become deeply intertwined with someone else's, and vice versa); but of course there's no guarantee it'll turn out that way, because it's an ever-evolving process and requires mutual sustained effort. (You could apply the preceding sentence to parenthood as well, though that usually changes the more concrete aspects of your life in much more far-reaching ways than marriage does.)

Since the ban on same-sex marriages was lifted in my denomination, we've had two same-sex weddings in our synagogue; three of those people are longstanding members, one couple are close friends of ours. Sadly, in the eyes of our state they're not married (we don't have civil unions here, either, nor are gay men and lesbians protected from employment and housing discrimination, save for government jobs). That makes me sick to my stomach because as far as I'm concerned they're married, as far as everyone in our synagogue is concerned they're married, but no one else recognizes it, and broad community recognition is really essential to what makes marriage marriage. Yes, Zach and Phil, that empathy-challenged, unstable, unkindly twosome whose very existence threatens my marriage and my family and the stability of society itself. (And gosh, what about my family?--female sole breadwinner, so our poor kids are left alone with their biologically-nurturance-challenged male parent all day. ) Why should they be scapegoated so that the rest of us can continue running our families in ways that suit our unique circumstances and our gifts as individuals, yet be given a pass for it because the sex composition of our households passes muster? If it weren't so stomach-turningly degrading, it would be downright funny.
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Then if there is nothing to protect why are you on the fence? If it won't protect society, then why protect the word?
Yes, this was pretty much my point.
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Old 10-10-2008, 09:54 PM   #314
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married people: why did you want to get married?

Because I love him, and we both wanted the full commitment of marriage. That's it really.

We could have lived together, but neither of us wanted that. We wanted to be married to each other.

That's why I so support marriage for all. It is such a wonderful thing when two people make that commitment to one another.
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Old 10-10-2008, 09:55 PM   #315
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Venom? You have got to be kidding? Now I wounder why I even bothered.

You don't even see it, do you.
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