SPLIT--> California's Proposition 8 on Same-Sex Marriage

[martha]

It bothers me so much that I honestly don't think I can even be friendly to many of my neighbors anymore, knowing they support something that could potentially end 16,000 marriages, using the bullshit excuse of protecting traditional marriage. What a joke. The hypocrisy and sense of superiority makes me want to vomit.

This is why I had to leave the staffroom very quickly a few days ago. I have to work with these people and I didn't really want to tell them to all fuck off. I may have been able to change a mind, and it may be that a few of them would have surprised me, but I doubt it. They're all "Christians" of course, even the one who has been married four times.

 

[diamond]

For the Mormon haters:

Update: Signs for "No on Prop. 8" outside of Steve Young's home
Reported by: Cristina Flores
Last Update: 3:13 pm

Print Story | Email Story

Steve Young and his wife Barbara have signs at their home in California against a proposed ban on same-sex marriage in the state. (San Francisco Bay Area — News, Sports, Business, Entertainment, Classifieds: SFGate) Former 49’ers football star and prominent Mormon Steve Young has some surprising signs in the windows of his house and on his front yard.

CBS Television Station KPIX, shot video of two official “No on Prop. 8” signs in windows of the Young family home in Palo Alto, California. The video also shows three Halloween themed signs displayed on the lawn. Those signs urge people to vote against Proposition 8, which seeks to ban gay marriage in California.

In addition, the television station reports that Young’s wife Barbara, made a $50,000 donation to the “No on Proposition 8” campaign. It is also reported that in an e-mail to the gay advocacy group Equality California, Barbara Young made the following statement: "We believe all families matter, and we do not believe in discrimination, therefore, our family will vote against Prop. 8"


A spokesman representing Steve Young contacted 2News after this story originally aired. Kirk Reynolds says Young has not and will not endorse the campaign against Proposition 8. Reynolds explained that Barbara Young has a brother who is gay and that is why she does not support Proposition 8.

In a follow up statement forwarded by Reynolds, Mrs. Young says, "To expand on my earlier email, I am very passionate about this issue and Steve is completely supportive of me and my work for equality. We both love our Church and are grateful that our Church encourages us to vote our conscience. Steve prefers not to get involved politically on any issue no matter what the cause and therefore makes no endorsement."

Reynolds said Steve Young would not disclose how he planned to vote on the proposition.

Will Carlson, with Equality Utah, called the Young family’s actions a “Pleasant surprise”, given that the LDS Church urged its members to do whatever they could to help the passage of Proposition 8 on Election Day. Carlson says, “What you see with the members of the LDS Church coming out on both sides of this issue, not just for Prop.8, but against Prop. 8, is that it’s a complex issue and there’s not one clear side.”

Carlson says the advocacy group here in Utah has not taken an official position on Proposition 8 and did not intend to get involved. But, since so many Utahns have given so much money to the campaign, Equality Utah’s head Mike Thompson, is in California right now volunteering for the “No on 8” campaign.

Recently, a group of Mormons marched to the LDS Church headquarters in downtown Salt Lake City, to urge church leadership to stop their involvement with the issue. On Sunday November 2nd, a group of Mormon mothers will hold a candlelight vigil at the plaza at the Salt Lake City Library in support of gay people and civil rights. The event starts at 6pm.

 

[phillyfan26]

So, you still believe that "separate but equal" is effective?

.

 

[toscano]

For the Mormon haters:

Update: Signs for "No on Prop. 8" outside of Steve Young's home
Reported by: Cristina Flores
Last Update: 3:13 pm

How much money has the LDS given to the pro-bigotry side (euphemistically called 'yes on 8' ) ? How much to the equality side ? (i.e, 'no on 8')?

 

[diamond]

The LDS Church?

none.

<>

 

[toscano]

The LDS Church?

none.

<>

Did I SAY "LDS Church" ?


"Estimates of donations by Mormons to Prop 8 are now up to $10 million, funding all of those lies and distortions on our airwaves. They have been fueling their volunteer base from here in California and across the country, using their church organizing networks to turn out volunteers to phone bank and knock doors. And Mark Jansson, a "Yes on 8" Executive Committee member and self-described LDS member, was one of four signers to the blackmail letter sent to Equality California donors. The Mormon Church is heart of the Prop 8 campaign, but for a long time the scope of their involvement was not known.

Well, now that it is out in the open and attention is being paid to it, the Mormon Church is squirming and at least in one case, backing down. They are simply not enjoying this attention. From today's SacBee:

The Mormon church, whose members have emerged as the leading backers of a ballot measure to end same-sex marriage in California, is scaling back its Utah campaign operation but will continue to support the initiative.

Church members will no longer be making phone calls from Utah to California voters, Kim Farah, a spokeswoman for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said in a prepared statement Friday."

 

[diamond]

Did I SAY "LDS Church" ? QUOTE]

The difference is the LDS Church has not publicly endorsed Prop 8, while The Catholic Church and other churches have.

The LDS Church says vote your conscience.

Why don't you go after an organization that has an official policy supporting the Prop vs one that says vote your conscience?

Based on your posts you seem to hate Mormons.

<>

 

[toscano]

Did I SAY "LDS Church" ? QUOTE]

The difference is the LDS Church has not publicly endorsed Prop 8, while The Catholic Church and other churches have.

The LDS Church says vote your conscience.

Why don't you go after an organization that has an official policy supporting the Prop vs one that says vote your conscience?

Based on your posts you seem to hate Mormons.

<>

I hate bigotry.

Most mormons appear to be bigots.

The Catholic church isn't giving money either, but the "Knights of Columbus" are. They're bigots too.

Who is the MOST bigoted group in California?

"Many donors cite religious beliefs, with members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints emerging as the largest source of money to the Yes-on-8 effort. Mormons contributed about 40 percent of its war chest"

You're a bigot Diamond and your 'church' won't condemn bigotry, that makes them complicit in organized bigotry. Spin the semantics all you want. It may not be 'official' , but to all practical intents and purposes, it is an officially condoned position.

The member represent their church, it's pretty what the LDS church stands for, thanks.

 

[martha]

The difference is the LDS Church has not publicly endorsed Prop 8, while The Catholic Church and other churches have.

The LDS Church says vote your conscience.

Why don't you go after an organization that has an official policy supporting the Prop vs one that says vote your conscience?

Mormon Church steps into the Prop. 8 battle | L.A. Now | Los Angeles Times

Now comes the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which grabbed some TV time in Utah to urge the 770,000 Mormon church members in California to weigh in on the matter.

Two members of the church's second-highest governing body, the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, quoted from Mormon scripture on the sanctity of marriage as they laid out a week-by-week strategy for boosting Mormon involvement before the Nov. 4 election in voter registration efforts, phone banks and distributing campaign materials.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is part of a coalition of conservative groups backing Proposition 8,

 

[toscano]

Mormon Church steps into the Prop. 8 battle | L.A. Now | Los Angeles Times

This is their attempt to gain credibility as "one of them" with the evangelical Christians, but they'll always just be regarded as a "cult" by them, and as institutionalized bigotry by everyone else

 

[Irvine511]

This is their attempt to gain credibility as "one of them" with the evangelical Christians, but they'll always just be regarded as a "cult" by them, and as institutionalized bigotry by everyone else

Mittens '12!!!

 

[Irvine511]

one of my favorite blogger/columnists had this to say:

If you have any California friends or family who are still thinking they're going to vote yes on Propositon 8, send them this post and let them know that what they will do is hurt thousands of people with their vote. The lie is that we want to indoctrinate children, when the truth is that we want to protect our own children. I don't have kids of my own but I know many gay parents in this state who do--there are over 50,000 kids in California with gay parents--and those families will be harmed by Prop 8. If that child needs a guardian to act on his or her behalf and the sole legal guardian isn't nearby, then the legal guardian's non-legal partner has no right to make decisions on the child's behalf. The child is the one who suffers.

The other lie is that we already have the same legal protections with domestic partnerships. The truth is that we don't--not on a state level and especially not on the federal level. And domestic partnerships, in practice, simply don't come with the same institutional weight as legal marriage. When it hits the fan and you need to be taken seriously as your partner's spokesperson, in an emergency situation or a medical situation, simply saying, "I'm his registered domestic partner" will get you a blank stare quite often.

But the biggest lie is that our relationships don't matter, that they're not the same as the ones heterosexuals have, that somehow it's okay to try to control us and to make our legal rights a matter for public consensus. If you feel that way then what you're really saying is that we're not as human as you are, that it's okay to treat entire groups of other human beings as though they aren't as good as you. And if you think your religious beliefs taught you that this was okay, then you haven't been paying very much attention in church.

Or maybe you have. Maybe you go to a church that preaches this kind of thing. And if that's the case then I want to remind you that since your religion doesn't apply to me at all, I'm not supposed to have to be governed by it.

Don't erase my marriage tomorrow. You know it's the wrong thing to do.

 

[martha]

Holy shit.

Log out and go to the main forums page. It's lousy with Yes on 8 ads.

 

[martha]

Fucking skywriters over my house right now.

Not the cheap, one-plane kind. No. Catholics and Mormons have money to burn. These are the expensive, six-plane skywriters.

Why didn't the Klan think of this 40 years ago?

 

[anitram]

I'm embarrassed on behalf of all these people.

There's a reason why my brother and I stopped going to the Church in which we were raised. Well, there are multiple reasons, but this is certainly one of them.

 

[BAW]

Fucking skywriters over my house right now.

Not the cheap, one-plane kind. No. Catholics and Mormons have money to burn. These are the expensive, six-plane skywriters.

Why didn't the Klan think of this 40 years ago?

You have got to be kidding???

 

[toscano]

Fucking skywriters over my house right now.

Not the cheap, one-plane kind. No. Catholics and Mormons have money to burn. These are the expensive, six-plane skywriters.

Why didn't the Klan think of this 40 years ago?

just individuals "voting their conscience"...........no church support....none...no no....of course not......

I pulled a few yes on 8 flyers out of the ground near my work today and someone actually stopped and thanked me, there's hope yet......

 

[yolland]

Skywriters??!?

If that were a comedy show skit, it would be funny...

 

[martha]

And over northern Orange County, where it's a toss-up.

 

[Lila64]

I saw a neighbor around the block with a No on 8 sign on their lawn. They were also taking masking tape to their car and writing out 'No on 8' on their windows

 

[diamond]

I pray that somewhere, God is taking really good notes.

36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Originally Posted by toscano
Now the yes-on-8 bigots

anitram:bigoted people

anitram:a skanky ho. But hey, I guess she liked dicks

toscano:regarded as a "cult" by them

toscano:You're a bigot Diamond

Matthew 7
Judging Others
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

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<>

 

[toscano]

Matthew 7
Judging Others
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Forum Rules:


Anything that is a personal attack (by personal attack, we also include yawns, rolleyes, etc. that are directly intended to annoy, or used excessively).


Anything that is "inappropriate" (overly sexual, excessive profanity, etc)

Anything that is defamatory towards another site, person, or organization.

<>

bigot: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Calling someone a bigot who IS a bigot is merely stating a fact.

 

[maycocksean]

Calling someone a bigot who IS a bigot is merely stating a fact.

That may be true. But it's unlikely you'll change their minds.

I think the charges of racist, bigot, and yes even homophobe are not partiuclarly useful (even if true). Someone posted a great video in FYM awhile back where this guy talks about the difference between calling someone a racist and in pointing out that they've said something racist and pointing out how much more productive the latter is.

I guess part of it is I really believe that 99.9% of us harbor bigoted attitudes of some sort.

 

[toscano]

That may be true. But it's unlikely you'll change their minds.

I think the charges of racist, bigot, and yes even homophobe are not partiuclarly useful (even if true). Someone posted a great video in FYM awhile back where this guy talks about the difference between calling someone a racist and in pointing out that they've said something racist and pointing out how much more productive the latter is.

I guess part of it is I really believe that 99.9% of us harbor bigoted attitudes of some sort.

Maybe so, but if one is brazen enough to put it on display one ought to be prepared to be called on it.

 

[anitram]

I guess part of it is I really believe that 99.9% of us harbor bigoted attitudes of some sort.

That may be so.

But 99.9% of us aren't trying to codify our bigotry in statute.

 

[yolland]

I think Sean was thinking in terms of the possibility of changing minds rather than taking a stand only.

For better and for worse, a civil rights movement needs to do both.

 

[maycocksean]

That may be so.

But 99.9% of us aren't trying to codify our bigotry in statute.

True. All I am saying is that if we're going convince people to stop trying to codify their bigotry in law then starting by calling them bigots probably isn't going to help. It might make us feel better but won't do much to further our point of view.

I mean, have you ever met anyone, no matter how bigoted and hate-filled who would actually admit to being a bigot? "Well, when you put it like that--you're right. I really AM a hate filled bigot?" Doesn't happen.

 

[anitram]

True. All I am saying is that if we're going convince people to stop trying to codify their bigotry in law then starting by calling them bigots probably isn't going to help. It might make us feel better but won't do much to further our point of view.

That only works if you believe that coddling these people and allowing special leeway for their religious bigotry is going to magically transform them. I don't believe that is the case, so we may as well call a spade a spade.

 

[toscano]

That only works if you believe that coddling these people and allowing special leeway for their religious bigotry is going to magically transform them. I don't believe that is the case, so we may as well call a spade a spade.

My daughter owns a bible, she is "no on 8", and she pointed this out to me:

"So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you."
[Matthew 7:12.]

Did the Latter-Day-Bigots, the Roman-bigots and the Evangelical bigots ALL miss the "everything" ????

 

[Irvine511]

when i was called a defender of child molestation because i somehow have not been more outspoken on the subject by not releasing my own youtube denunciations of sex tourism in Thailand, then i felt as if calling that person was a bigot was entirely appropriate.

here, in FYM, since i "know" the few people who disagree with me on this issue, i feel perfectly comfortable saying to them that they are bigots when it comes to homosexuality. there's no way around it. it's absolutely bigoted to say that, always and in all ways, a heterosexual relationship is superior to a homosexual relationship, just as it's bigoted to say that there is only one kind of acceptable family.

however, in the broad sense, sean is absolutely correct.