SPLIT--> California's Proposition 8 on Same-Sex Marriage

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and as a follow up, i think this is a great post.

it tells me what it is you don't understand, which is that i'm a person too. not a virtual person, a person. and i'm every bit your equal, and deserving of the same rights, protections, and respect that you are accorded.

Seems to be a mutual misunderstanding.

Why do you feel it is not possible for someone to be A) completely opposed to redefining marriage while also B) believing that homosexuals are created in God's image and C) able to recognize their dignity as human beings and equality before the law?
And, do you really think opposition to same-sex marriage is based solely on "fear, ignorance, and loathing"?
I've kept my arguments completely secular but there is entire moral argument on religious grounds to be made. True, the law is secular but should it not still reflect the morals of those it governs. And the vast majority of Americans still believe marriage to be between one man and one woman, a belief which predates America, our common law and has only been the cornerstone of Western civilization for 2000+ years.

Plus, for me, marriage is clearly defined in the New Testament of the Bible. Mk 10:6-9

There, now this thread has gays, guns and God. :)
 
i can think of no reason to withhold the word "marriage" other than to maintain an arbitrary distinction between two unions, and the distinction clearly means that one is preferable to the other.

civil unions are inherently unequal. there is no redefinition of marriage, not insofar as other "redefinitions" -- can't marry 13 year olds, can't marry your first cousin, can't marry 5 women -- have further altered the definition.

the fear comes from the thinking that calling two women "married" will somehow degrade a man and a woman who are likewise married.

the ignorance comes from the thinking that a same-sex couple is inherently different in substantive ways from an opposite-sex couple. (are there differences? yes. but no more than the difference between, say, Mr. and Mrs. Yolland and Mr. and Mrs. Dreadsox)

the loathing comes from the need to maintain a distinction in order to reaffirm one's status as a preferred group.
 
God, do I hate willful ignorance.

Anyone remember the poster Varitek? She doesn't post much anymore because she's studying abroad in Europe, but she is the child of a lesbian couple. And she could come in here right now and point-by-point explain to you how her childhood was just as "beneficial" as any other one.

Defining that as an ideal, and saying that same-sex couples can never provide for their kids as well as heterosexuals, is not only blatantly false, it's pure, 100%, hateful bigotry. At this point you've heard way too many facts and opposing viewpoints from people who've actually lived it for it to be anything other than willfully ignorant bigotry.

My hope is that posts like this, in the near future, would get one suspended on a forum like this.



Thanks Phillyfan (although I'm working in Europe...2 years ago when I was studying abroad in Europe was when I got quite into FYM, though, and had a thread about being the child of lesbians).

I agree that posts like that are so objectively wrong and bigoted and as offensive as saying "black people shouldn't have children for xyz reasons."
 
i can think of no reason to withhold the word "marriage" other than to maintain an arbitrary distinction between two unions, and the distinction clearly means that one is preferable to the other.

.......

the loathing comes from the need to maintain a distinction in order to reaffirm one's status as a preferred group.


People forget that we've already had our experiment with "Separate But Equal."


It failed miserably. :down:







and it's still failing
 
wow. i did a single google. here's what i came up with:


Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse



i look forward to your future posts arguing that blacks aren't as smart as whites, that jews are greedier than christians, that all puerto ricans steal, that all native americans are alcoholics, that asians are better at math than whites, that gypsies will use black magic to steal your purse, and that curry objectively makes indians smell funny.

because that's on par with this bullshit.
 
you know, i really shouldn't have to do this.

any idiot would realize the sources, would realize that one person does not speak for millions.

do the math. use your powers of critical analysis.

Well I apologize if I hurt your feelings but when it comes to children I get really angry and defensive. The article talks about plenty of examples that look like a double standard. Especially with the president of PFLAG. If you have other studies you know about I don't mind reading them.

I would be interested in articles with gays that actually attack NAMBLA and people who support intergenerational relationships. If it's not the majority opinion of homosexual relationships then there should be some backlash against those who support intergenerational relationships. As you can tell I draw a line (or brick wall) when it comes to the age of 18.
 
Well I apologize if I hurt your feelings but when it comes to children I get really angry and defensive. The article talks about plenty of examples that look like a double standard. Especially with the president of PFLAG. If you have other studies you know about I don't mind reading them.

I would be interested in articles with gays that actually attack NAMBLA and people who support intergenerational relationships. If it's not the majority opinion of homosexual relationships then there should be some backlash against those who support intergenerational relationships. As you can tell I draw a line (or brick wall) when it comes to the age of 18.



so i have to explicitly attack NAMBLA in order to prove to you that i'm not a child molestor?

i can't believe i have to put up with this shit.

go start your own goddamn thread. this is a subject that has NOTHING to do with same-sex marriage. NOTHING.
 
Well I apologize if I hurt your feelings but when it comes to children I get really angry and defensive. The article talks about plenty of examples that look like a double standard. Especially with the president of PFLAG. If you have other studies you know about I don't mind reading them.

I would be interested in articles with gays that actually attack NAMBLA and people who support intergenerational relationships. If it's not the majority opinion of homosexual relationships then there should be some backlash against those who support intergenerational relationships. As you can tell I draw a line (or brick wall) when it comes to the age of 18.

Do you really believe that there is a concerted effort, condoned by the majority of homosexuals, to lower the age of consent so homosexuals can have sex with little boys? Do you HONESTLY believe that this is representative of the majority of homosexuals, or anything more than an extreme minority?

Once again, you are taking the actions of an extreme minority and ascribing it to the majority. Your insinuation that the homosexual community (as if they're a unified group) condones this kind of behavior because you yourself haven't seen any articles expressly condemning it is insulting and bigotted.

You are treading on very thin ice, purpleoscar.
 
as an aside, the idea that some "homosexual groups" want to lower the age of consent so they can have sex with 12 year olds is, obviously, false. in many states, and in many countries, there are differing ages of consent for heterosexuals than for homosexuals. it seems entirely appropriate that there be a single age of consent -- whether that's 14 or 16 or 18 or 21 is entirely up to the state -- and that consent shouldn't be dependent upon one's sexual orientation.



i can't believe i have to do this.
 
so i have to explicitly attack NAMBLA in order to prove to you that i'm not a child molestor?

i can't believe i have to put up with this shit.

go start your own goddamn thread. this is a subject that has NOTHING to do with same-sex marriage. NOTHING.


I'm not talking about YOU being a molester okay. I have to put up with points of view that I don't agree with at all. I was hoping for a more lively discussion. I'm not going to start a new thread if it's just going to be F this and F that and F you, and "who the hell are you?" If you want me to drop the discussion anywhere in the forum. Just say the word.
 
I'm not talking about YOU being a molester okay. I have to put up with points of view that I don't agree with at all. I was hoping for a more lively discussion. I'm not going to start a new thread if it's just going to be F this and F that and F you, and "who the hell are you?" If you want me to drop the discussion anywhere in the forum. Just say the word.



what kind of response did you think you get when you said that you were opposed to gay marriage and gay adoption because of these wildly bigoted articles and your insinuations that it was common for gay people to have sex with underage youth and go on sex tours to Thailand?

the only response i have to that is "fuck you" because what else is there to say?

it's preposterous. it's beyond preposterous. it's like something out of the mouth of Borat.
 
purpleoscar, you are aware that the very, very vast majority of pedophiles are heterosexual, right? Even those men who have sex with young boys self-identify as heterosexual, and have adult relationships (inasmuch as they're capable of adult relationships) with adult women. It's not a homosexual issue or problem. Heteros need to clean their own house before they go tossing around accusations about others.
 
purpleoscar, you are aware that the very, very vast majority of pedophiles are heterosexual, right? Even those men who have sex with young boys self-identify as heterosexual, and have adult relationships (inasmuch as they're capable of adult relationships) with adult women. It's not a homosexual issue or problem. Heteros need to clean their own house before they go tossing around accusations about others.

Well I agree that heteros have their problems. I've just dropped the topic as per Diemen and I looked up World Net Daily on wikipedia and they are a religious biased news source so that's my mistake for not looking farther into their views and since I'm not religious and don't like what the Catholic Church did with their controversy I feel I screwed up. They just cherry picked some strange people and made it look like the majority in the article.

I am capable of admitting when I'm wrong. :doh: Apologies to those who felt offended.:reject: I'll just go to a wall someplace and :banghead:

If laws protect child abuse it will be in all relationships and it's best to go in a case by case basis with the police than pointing out categories. Sometimes I need to see other arguments so I can see the full spectrum of ideas even if it feels like pulling teeth for other posters. A competition of ideas is needed to allow for that or else people stay huddled in their preconceptions without challenge.
 
purpleoscar has agreed to drop the topic, guys. Lets do the same.

Sorry Dieman. I just saw the threads dealing with this a few minutes ago. I've taken classes regarding child abuse and neglect, and treatment of pedophilia. I've sat through a very painful but amazing series of lectures with a pedophile (I literally cried for an hour after it was over). I just wanted to get the facts out there.

But I'll stop now.


I am capable of admitting when I'm wrong. :doh:


:up:
 
A message of not hating:

YouTube - The Best Gift

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I could not be more grateful for my childhood. I had everything a child could want, this GIFT, of two loving parents who doted on me and my sister while not spoiling us, who put our education and activities as varied as sports, music, dance, drama, math team, etc first, who made sure that we needed nothing, wanted little, and were still not spoiled, who made me feel safe and comfortable at doctors' and dentists' appointments, who gave me a warm and welcoming if cluttered and messy home that I still love to return to, who gave me many pleasant memories of family christmases and hannukahs, delicious mom-cooked meals, lakeside vacations, summer lunches outside in the back yard, picnics on the beach, snow man building, star gazing, reading together, watching tv together (ooh i'm a grown up now, I'm watching ER!). Every moment of my childhood, I knew I was loved. I knew my parents were proud of me, that they cared how I did in school and that I didn't get into trouble after school, that they were interested in my life and my goals. When I wrote my college essays at the last minute, they were there to encourage me, proofread, and drive me to the post office on new year's eve 40 minutes before closing time to pay express shipping rates on my applications. They were there to drop me off at college each year and drive me home, to welcome me for breaks at the airport and cook whatever meals I requested, to send care packages to me of things I'd forgotten and little treats they thought I'd miss, and to take an embarrassing place near the stage at graduation and proceed to wave and cheer and take too many photos, and to support me and advise me in my decisions about post-college life and to skype video chat with me every weekend now that I'm really, really far from home.

So, I was raised from birth by two parents who love each other. That they happen to be two women does not change the fact that I had one of the happiest and most loving childhoods anyone could ask for.
 
So, I was raised from birth by two parents who love each other. That they happen to be two women does not change the fact that I had one of the happiest and most loving childhoods anyone could ask for.


this post says more than the entire thread combined.
 
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