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Old 02-23-2006, 08:54 PM   #46
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We have people calling for the ban on abortion.

Why are they not calling for jail time or stiff penalties for pharmacists who refuse to provide prescribed birth control or the morning after pill?
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Old 02-23-2006, 08:57 PM   #47
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Originally posted by VertigoGal


I know it impacts women far more, but if a man believes it is murder you can't just dismiss his wanting to prevent murder because he doesn't have a womb.

and this gets at the fundamental tension -- the fetus' "right" to life versus a woman's "right" to control her body ... they're two different issues, two sets of "rights" that defy logical comparison, yet they are put in contention.

ultimately, i am simply more concerned with the "rights" of living, breathing human beings.

i think that clear thining about abortion leads you to have to make some brutal choices.
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Old 02-23-2006, 09:12 PM   #48
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Originally posted by indra


I think this must change if people want the numbers of abortions to fall. People who want to ban abortions should push for and be willing to fund cheap (even free) birth control for everyone.

And if they want healthy babies they should so the same for prenatal and pediatric care. Free or at least very cheap. A good healthy start in life should be a given, not a privilege for only wealthy people. We'd all benefit from it.
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Old 02-23-2006, 09:13 PM   #49
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Originally posted by deep

they should only be used once
well if they weren't so goddamn expensive...
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Old 02-23-2006, 09:22 PM   #50
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well in terms of "rights" I think most would agree that the right to life is most fundamental of them all. (If I believed that a fetus was a child in the first trimester, abortion would be murder and I would be against it. period.)

so I think it's got much more to do with the conflict as to when human life begins than with competing rights of the fetus and the woman.
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Old 02-23-2006, 09:28 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra


I think this must change if people want the numbers of abortions to fall. People who want to ban abortions should push for and be willing to fund cheap (even free) birth control for everyone.

And if they want healthy babies they should so the same for prenatal and pediatric care. Free or at least very cheap. A good healthy start in life should be a given, not a privilege for only wealthy people. We'd all benefit from it.
I agree. It sucks because places DO exist, but then there's the stigma of going to the "clinic". I know a local place where you can get birth control for free, but the point is that women shouldn't have to go to some dirty hole in the wall place for something so basic.
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Old 02-23-2006, 10:19 PM   #52
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Since I'm graduating from med school in 2 months, I figured I'd throw some medical knowledge into this discussion:


Contraceptive Failure Rates
Ideal-use failure rates: (assumes absolute perfect use)
#Sterilization:
## Male Sterilization-----0.1%
##Female Sterilization----0.5%
#Hormonal Methods:
##Implant (Norplant)----0.09%
##Hormone Shot (Depo-Provera)---0.3%
##Combined Pill (Estrogen/Progestin)---0.1%
##Minipill (Progestin only)---0.5%
#Intrauterine Devices (IUDs):
##Copper T---0.6%
##Progesterone T---1.5%
#Barrier Methods:
##Male Latex Condom---3%
##Diaphragm----6%
##Vaginal Sponge (no previous births)---9%
##Vaginal Sponge (previous births)----20%
##Cervical Cap (no previous births)---9%
##Cervical Cap (previous births)---26%
##Female Condom----5%
#Spermicide: (gel, foam, suppository, film)---6%
#Natural Methods:
##Withdrawal---4%
##Natural Family Planning (calendar, temperature, cervical mucus)---1-9%
#No Method:----85%

"Real-life" failure rates:
# Implants and injectables
2-4%
# Oral contraceptives
9%
# Diaphragm and cervical cap
13%
# Male condom
15%
# Periodic abstinence
22%
# Withdrawal
26%
# Spermicides
28%

(statistics taken from FDA data)
Let me add that in my mere 2 years of clinical experience, I've seen many pregnancies in couples that used contraception exactly as labeled (and I asked details). I've also seen many people not use contraception correctly & not get pregnant.

Rape & Sexual Assault Statistics


General Stats Using Broad Definition of Rape As "Unwanted Sexual Activity":
#One out of every three women will be raped in her lifetime.

#One out of four girls and one out of six boys are sexually abused before age 18.

#84% of rapes go unreported; 46% of survivors of acquaintance rape and 27% of stranger rape survivors never tell anyone.

#77% of rape survivors know their attacker. These include rapes committed by relatives, neighbors, acquaintances and boyfriends. 57% of rapes occur on a date.

#90% of children under the age of 12 knew their assailants.

#51-60% of college men report they would rape a woman if they were certain that they would get away with it. One out of twelve college men surveyed had committed acts that met the legal definition of rape; 84% of these men said what they did was DEFINITELY not rape.

#One in every seven married women will be sexually assaulted by her husband.


Finally, Stats from the US Bureau of Justice's National Crime Victimization Survey
#Rape/Sexual Assault: 2001-02: 247,990 women; 2003-04: 204,370 women
#Attempted Rape: 2001-2002: 70,050 women; 2003-04: 43,440 women
#Completed Rape: 2001-02: 87,010 women; 2003-04: 65,510 women


Cliff's Notes:
1). Contraception is not anywhere near perfect, even if perfectly used.

2). Rape is nowhere near as rare as you want to believe. In just under four years, 152,520 women in the United States reported being fully raped (not attempted rape). Given that 84% of rapes are unreported, 953,120 women in the U.S. were raped between 2001-2004. Even if half were only attempted rape, that's still nearly 500,000 completed rapes in four years.



Debate morals, etc., that's fine. But please don't think that things are rare because they haven't happened to you. Stew over these numbers and tell me that being a victim of rape or getting pregnant despite using contraception perfectly are extremely rare occurrences in the United States.
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Old 02-23-2006, 10:52 PM   #53
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^

Wow.
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Old 02-23-2006, 11:04 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra
^

Wow.
Yeah.

Besides the one out of every three women stat, I find this one to be the most disgusting:

Quote:
#51-60% of college men report they would rape a woman if they were certain that they would get away with it. One out of twelve college men surveyed had committed acts that met the legal definition of rape; 84% of these men said what they did was DEFINITELY not rape.
I think part of the reason why people don't think rape is so common is that if you watch the news, you never hear the word "rape" anymore. You only hear "sexual assault" or "sexually assaulted," and they no longer say "rape."

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Old 02-23-2006, 11:11 PM   #55
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That's for the info, Utoo.
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Old 02-24-2006, 10:52 AM   #56
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When I was a teenager my girlfriend (now my ex) and I had sex (safe sex supposedly) and she became opregnant. Of course both of us were terrified, but we decided to take responsibility and do whatever it took to raise our child.

Well, she had a miscarriage, which broke both of our hearts. I know it might sound kind of silly, but coming from someone who used to be a dad (yes I think I have a baby in Heaven) I can tell you Im just about 100% sure abortion should be illegal. Peopl really need to take responsibility for their actions. Sure it wold have been hard for me and my girlfriend, but there's no doubt we would have got by somehow. Anyone could. Having a baby won't result in anyone living on the streets or anything. I think it's usually an excuse to live a more convenient life.

And until we can say with 100% certainty that the fetus ISN'T a human life who are we to say abortions are OK? If it's guesswork (whch is it) then we could have millions of potential murders of innocent children on our hands
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Old 02-24-2006, 11:16 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by shart1780
Sure it wold have been hard for me and my girlfriend, but there's no doubt we would have got by somehow. Anyone could. Having a baby won't result in anyone living on the streets or anything. I think it's usually an excuse to live a more convenient life.



i am very sorry for your loss, but this is a terrifically naive statement.
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Old 02-24-2006, 11:19 AM   #58
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Hmmm...I have so many thoughts on the abortion debate I never know where to start.

First, I guess I would say these stats make it clearer that if you believe in a fetus' right to life over a woman's choice to remain pregnant, it makes no sense to say abortion is acceptable in cases of rape vs. any other unintentional pregnancy. There really is no point in comparing *degrees* of accidental pregnancy. After all, you could comare having unprotected sex and getting pregnant to walking alone at night and getting raped. It's your own fault, right?

Why is the question, when does life begin really relevant? It really only serves to avoid the question of one set of rights vs another. Why avoid the question?

Is a potential life in a petrie dish or uterus simply life to be protected at all cost?

Is abortion ok if a mother's life is at stake? Is that not deciding one life is more valuable or important than the other?

If you establish that right, then who has more right to life, hundreds of thousands of people with degenerating diseases or 400,000 unwanted frozen embryos (in the US alone) who can possibly save them and perhaps millions in the future?

Who decides?

If a government can unwillingly draft you into war to kill and/or be killed, is that authority higher than any one person's authority over her own body when it is a question of life and death...if so, why?
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Old 02-24-2006, 12:24 PM   #59
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Originally posted by AliEnvy There really is no point in comparing *degrees* of accidental pregnancy.
I would say that getting pregnant after intentionally having sex with someone is vastly different from getting pregnant because a stranger raped you!

Quote:
After all, you could comare having unprotected sex and getting pregnant to walking alone at night and getting raped. It's your own fault, right?
Do you seriously believe that getting raped because you walked alone at night is really your own fault??? I find that to be an extremely awful point of view. I can only hope you're playing devil's advocate...
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Old 02-24-2006, 12:29 PM   #60
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How can someone who supports the right to abortion be against the death penalty? Maybe the difference is the person on death row is a sentient being who knows just what is going on, and the baby-to-be is not by by definition.
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