South Dakota bans abortion. Full stop.

[Irvine511]

How can someone who supports the right to abortion be against the death penalty? Maybe the difference is the person on death row is a sentient being who knows just what is going on, and the baby-to-be is not by by definition.

i'll add that it is because the death penalty is a terrible means to deter crime and an even worse method to met out punishment -- it is highly racist, and classist, and it is the finality of the death penalty that makes it impossible to ever implement with 100% certainty 100% of the time.

it also begs the question -- how do you prove that killing is wrong by killing people?

it also places a premium on revenge and appeals to our basest of instincts -- an eye for an eye!

 

[AliEnvy]

I would say that getting pregnant after intentionally having sex with someone is vastly different from getting pregnant because a stranger raped you!

Indeed it is. But why would rape have ANY bearing on an unborn baby's right to live? It doesn't. Unless you are concerned with the quality of the life of the mother.

Do you seriously believe that getting raped because you walked alone at night is really your own fault??? I find that to be an extremely awful point of view. I can only hope you're playing devil's advocate...

Of course I'm playing devil's advocate! Sheesh...but don't you see? The determination of the baby's right to life being based on the degree of "fault" of the mother is the absurdity that I'm pointing out.

 

[Liesje]

How easy is it to obtain morning-after pills? I think rape victims and anyone should have access to them for free without having to have a rape kit done. Then there's no need for an abortion.

 

[redkat]

How easy is it to obtain morning-after pills? I think rape victims and anyone should have access to them for free without having to have a rape kit done. Then there's no need for an abortion.

I'm sure it depends on who and where but it's not that easy.

Some women in this country can't even get birth control. One of the major grocery chains in the country leaves it up to the pharmacists discretion if they want to dispense to someone or not.

If you went to a hospital you could get it after rape for instance but most victims don't seek immediate help to begin with.

 

[Liesje]

I'm sure it depends on who and where but it's not that easy.

Some women in this country can't even get birth control. One of the major grocery chains in the country leaves it up to the pharmacists discretion if they want to dispense to someone or not.

If you went to a hospital you could get it after rape for instance but most victims don't seek immediate help to begin with.

Exactly. We have many more issues here in the States than simply to abort or not to abort. If we had proper health care and access to birth control, I think abortion would be less of an issue.

 

[redkat]

Exactly. We have many more issues here in the States than simply to abort or not to abort. If we had proper health care and access to birth control, I think abortion would be less of an issue.

exactly if it were easier to get the morning after pill it would really help.

I was going to add that I believe planned parenthood (if you have one near you) would have it without the intimidation of having to go to a hospital or dr. if the woman didn't have insurance.

 

[Irvine511]

How easy is it to obtain morning-after pills? I think rape victims and anyone should have access to them for free without having to have a rape kit done. Then there's no need for an abortion.

and there are those that believe that the morning after pill is tantamount to an abortion.

 

[verte76]

I would support a federal birth-control program, but we don't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting one.

 

[aislinn]

Also, I don't like how anyone can anonymously get an abortion and that's the end of it.

Actually, it's not that easy to get an abortion these days.

As of right now, many states have laws telling you who can and can't get an abortion. It's not like anyone can walk in a clinic and get an abortion. First, you have to be of a certain age--16 or 17 is the cutoff for most states before you have to get a parent's consent--and some places it might be 18 now. Second, you don't get the abortion the first time you go into the clinic. You make an appointment where they talk to you about your choices. Then you have to wait a while--there's a time period required by law that you have to wait before you can actually get an abortion. Plus, it's not really that anonymous. You're walking into a place that is under surveillance by multiple video cameras and protestors (usually). Also, doctors can refuse to perform the abortion based on how long you've been pregnant. Many will refuse to do one after 20 weeks, unless the health of the mother is at risk.

Many women who make that choice have a terrible time dealing for a long time after. If abortion is going to be legal, there should be a counselling component offered or required.

Many states required counselling before the abortion, in order for the woman to be completely sure she wants to do it. And many states also require what's called "after care" for the woman to attend once the abortion has been performed.

I don't know if any of you know a woman who's had an abortion, but it's not an easy decision to make. I don't know of anyone who's had an abortion who made the decision because she just didn't want to be inconvenienced. I don't feel judging someone based on the decisions she's made is an adequate response to the real problems at hand.

Personally, I would consider myself against abortion, but I have a real problem with telling other women what they should and shouldn't do. I feel it's a decision that should be between the woman and God. But that's just me.

I find it unfortunate that South Dakota is willing to do this because it will only cause women seeking abortions to travel to other states or receive "back alley" abortions. No matter what, women are going to get abortions. Sad, but true.

 

[najeena]

The fertilization process is not instantaneous, it can take days for the sperm to reach the egg in the fallopian tube. The morning after pill prevents fertilization, a blastocyst is never formed. How can this be called an abortion?

 

[VertigoGal]

Some of the points you made AliEnvy are very good ones.

I honestly can't understand how people can be okay with abortion in the case of rape but positively against it in all other situations. If you believe it's human life there, how would the horrible fact that the mother was raped justify what would then be murder?

oops I had to edit that but I agree with a lot of what you said too najeena

 

[AliEnvy]

The fertilization process is not instantaneous, it can take days for the sperm to reach the egg in the fallopian tube. The morning after pill prevents fertilization, a blastocyst is never formed. How can this be called an abortion?

Well that's interesting, I always thought the morning pill acted like an IUD and prevented implantation after conception.

No one fusses about IUDs though...why is that? Is it because a woman proavtively chooses a widely used and accepted birth control method before having sex as opposed to the perception of reactively correcting a mistake?

 

[AliEnvy]

Thx, VertigoGal.

Did anyone see the episode of Six Feet Under when Nate was "visited" by his children of various ages who had been aborted by his ex-girlfriends?

It's not a point of view we get to see very often and left me wondering if generally a man thinks about what might have been after an abortion as much as a woman does.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Driving through South Dakota it's clear where they stand. Anti abortion billboards throughout.

This is quite true, as I've been through there many times myself. Nebraska was the same way. However, at the same time, we get the Rapid City Journal here, and I've been reading that a bit lately, and in the recent weeks I've read it, I was a bit surprised at how many letters I saw that were against the abortion ban. I'm rather glad to see many letters against the ban, was just surprised at how many there were.

Yeah, a ban on abortion in general would be utterly stupid. Not only would it discount all the potentially necessary reasons for a woman doing this, but it also wouldn't solve a damn thing. The abortions would still happen. If people want abortion to stop, they really, really need to deal with the problems that lead to women having them in the first place. I don't understand why people don't realize that, why they think a simple ban will just solve everything.

Angela

 

[najeena]

AliEnvy, I stand corrected. The pill we're talking about prevents ovulation or the fertilized egg from being implanted. I'm not sure where I picked up that erroneous informaton.

I would also point out that a woman's body surely expells fertilized eggs along with the menstrual flow occasionally, without the IUD or the morning after pill.

 

[sue4u2]

The last I heard it still takes sperm to fertilize an egg..period..
or did I miss some late breaking news..
Seem's the only answer to preventing unwanted pregnancy and or an abortion is to ban men!! from having sex with any female
who may be of childbearing age.. underaged or not, consenting or non consenting, married or single, . After all if a man/boy has sex with a woman/girl then he's directly responsible if she get's pregnant.
How does that sound? simple and simple minded.
yeah, almost as simple minded as men and or women telling me what I should do with my own body..

 

[blueeyedgirl]

Dear God (and I use that term in a rhetorical sense cos I don't believe he/she exists).

Yet another reason for me to never travel to the US, EVER

 

[indra]

The last I heard it still takes sperm to fertilize an egg..period..
or did I miss some late breaking news..
Seem's the only answer to preventing unwanted pregnancy and or an abortion is to ban men!! from having sex with any female
who may be of childbearing age.. underaged or not, consenting or non consenting, married or single, . After all if a man/boy has sex with a woman/girl then he's directly responsible if she get's pregnant.
How does that sound? simple and simple minded.
yeah, almost as simple minded as men and or women telling me what I should do with my own body..

Let's put that one on the books!

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Let's put that one on the books!

Agreed . Well said, Sue .

Angela

 

[AliEnvy]

Let's for arguments' sake say conception is the beginning of life and that anything that deliberately interferes with the natural process of pregnancy from that point on is killing an innocent, defenseless baby.

Some will say that the baby's right to life is absolute and there are no circumstances that would legitimize this killing.

Birth control pills (all of them), hormone-based injections and IUDs all have a failure rate not simply due to non-compliance of the woman but because they can't prevent ovulation and conception 100% of the time (IUDs for example never prevent conception). So there are a number of people taking birth control pills who may chemically abort post-conception without ever knowing it. Why aren't pharmacists refusing to dispense regular birth control pills?

So are we going to ban manufacturing and dispensing all these methods of birth control to protect all potential babies? If it is an embryo's absolute right to life, why wouldn't we?

Is it easier to just dismiss conception as the beginning of life than acknowledge that a woman's right (some would say RESPONSIBILITY) to prevent pregnancy - with a failure rate that kills babies - is more convenient?

Maybe it would be better if women simply didn't have sex unless they are willing to bear children.

 

[sallycinnamon78]

Yes, there are very special cases, but that's such a small minority.

Really. You know for certain that this is a fact, do you???

Quote: "Proposed amendments to the law to create exceptions to specifically protect the health of the mother, or in cases of rape or incest, were voted down."

I'm late into this debate!

I remember the Republican party conference in 1992, just before the election - a time during which all the main parties were playing then abortion card. As if any of them actually cared about anything other than getting into government.

I remember a high profile woman (michelle something or other, I think - I was just a kid at the time) made a speech pleading for choice in cases of rape and/or incest. She was basically booed off stage.

I remember getting very, very upset by this and sounding off to my mother, who said something along the lines of "if they want to go back to medieval times, that's their problem."

I was exceptionally glad when we moved back from the States to England later that year. Even the UK, my home, which I think is at least 50 years behind everyone else, is not backward enough to try and repeal the abortion law.

As for the college boy stats - Christ on a bike. I feel sick.

 

[Liesje]

Birth control pills (all of them), hormone-based injections and IUDs all have a failure rate not simply due to non-compliance of the woman but because they can't prevent ovulation and conception 100% of the time (IUDs for example never prevent conception). So there are a number of people taking birth control pills who may chemically abort post-conception without ever knowing it. Why aren't pharmacists refusing to dispense regular birth control pills?

How does birth control prevent conception or chemically abort? I'm not picking a fight; it's been a LONG time since I've had a science class! Can you explain the difference and how a birth control pill like say, orthotricycline can chemically abort? I'm going to get a new pill later this week some I'm interested....

 

[Liesje]

Really. You know for certain that this is a fact, do you???

No, I don't know for a fact, but I'm willing to bet that the number of times a mother considers abortion because of potential death of herself or her baby is significantly small in comparison to the number of abortions used as birth control where there is no diagnoses of potential death for the mother or fetus.

 

[anitram]

But if you feel abortion is a case of rights and right to live, then how do you justify that a fetus that is a result of a rape has a lesser right to live than one that is conceived lovingly?

Is every baby not created equal to you then? Why is a woman's right to choose correct in this case? Nobody on this thread has been able to explain that.

ETA: This really isn't in my field, but I don't believe you can chemically abort by continuing to take a combination pill after becoming pregnant. There are questions about whether it may cause genetic abnormalities but I think even that has been discounted recently?

 

[Liesje]

But if you feel abortion is a case of rights and right to live, then how do you justify that a fetus that is a result of a rape has a lesser right to live than one that is conceived lovingly?

Is every baby not created equal to you then? Why is a woman's right to choose correct in this case? Nobody on this thread has been able to explain that.

ETA: This really isn't in my field, but I don't believe you can chemically abort by continuing to take a combination pill after becoming pregnant. There are questions about whether it may cause genetic abnormalities but I think even that has been discounted recently?

Are you addressing me? If so, honestly I don't really feel on way or the other when it comes to legislation of abortion. I don't support abortion and I would never have one, but that's a personal choice. I can't imagine ever aborting a baby just because I didn't feel it was the right time or whatever, but that's my own decision. Every baby is created equal to me and obviously I can't say how I'd really feel because I've never been in this situation, but I'd like to think that if I were ever raped and got pregnant, I'd choose to keep the baby or at least give it up for adoption. I can't imagine dealing with the pain of rape AND aborting a baby. In general, I do not believe the right of one individual's choice supercedes the right of another individual to live, especially when the first individual has already exercised choice in creating a situation where another life is a possible result.

I'd rather focus on why it's such a pain in the ass to get decent, affordable birth control for women in this country. For me to get the pill I have to flat out LIE to my insurance company or it would not be covered and would cost over $100 a month. This kind of thing means a lot more to me than trying to legislate abortions.

 

[AliEnvy]

How does birth control prevent conception or chemically abort? I'm not picking a fight; it's been a LONG time since I've had a science class! Can you explain the difference and how a birth control pill like say, orthotricycline can chemically abort? I'm going to get a new pill later this week some I'm interested....

I'm not a scientist but I know more than I ever cared to know about fertility so I'll give this a shot lol.

The pill and shots or patches are trying to stop ovulation. In doing so, your whole hormonal cycle and uterus lining is altered. Every now and then (I don't have stats), ovulation occurs anyway. So even if conception happens, the embryo may or may not implant in the uterus, and if it implants, it may or may not "stick". Partly because the uterine lining is not optimal and the woman is likely still taking the pills which does not allow the usual hormonal changes necessary for successful implantation. That's why it can be called a chemical abortion.

An IUD is a device that sits permanently in the uterus with the purpose to alter the uterine lining to prevent implantation (that's what the morning after pill does too). So there is absolutely no prevention of conception.

 

[Liesje]

Thanks!

 

[blueyedpoet]

Here's what i don't understand about believers in God who are "pro-life":
According to many traditions, believers in God believe that God bestowed upon human beings free will. Humans are set apart from other animals and other forms of life, because we have free will. Does a fetus have free will? Pro-life, God believing people argue that the fetus doesn't have a choice in the matter, so they need to defend the fetus's rights. That's admitting the fetus doesn't have free will. Therefore, the fetus isn't human.

 

[Liesje]

Here's what i don't understand about believers in God who are "pro-life":
According to many traditions, believers in God believe that God bestowed upon human beings free will. Humans are set apart from other animals and other forms of life, because we have free will. Does a fetus have free will? Pro-life, God believing people argue that the fetus doesn't have a choice in the matter, so they need to defend the fetus's rights. That's admitting the fetus doesn't have free will. Therefore, the fetus isn't human.

Good point. However, there are many traditions, my own (Calvinism) included, do not believe in the doctrine of free will. I guess for them then it's not an issue.

 

[melon]

We should arrest God now. I believe I read that an estimated 80% of all fertilized eggs never attach to the uterus and are, as such, aborted.

Melon