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Old 02-23-2006, 06:27 PM   #31
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Really? I thought the majority of abortions were not related to the compelling reasons of rape, incest or harm to mother.


terminating an unwanted pregnancy is vastly different than viewing it as a form of birth control. i think it's amazingly insulting to women to think that they make frequent appointments with doctors to get themselves cleaned out, so to speak.

this applies, *especially*, with so-called late-term abortions.
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Old 02-23-2006, 06:35 PM   #32
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Originally posted by Irvine511
i understand LivLuv's post, but i think its' vastly crueler to essentially condemn a woman to death if having the baby will kill her.
I had posted some additional thoughts that I forgot to include in my original post, but then Interference kept freezing and apparently they never made it.

Anyway, what I said was that I DO full support early-term abortion in cases of rape, incest, or extreme danger to the mother or fetus. However, it seems that these cases are so few and far between, the main use of abortion is for convenience. As a woman, I support women's choices as far as birth control and the choice to get pregnant or not. I do not believe the "choice" extends so far that another potential life's right to live is compromised.
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Old 02-23-2006, 06:37 PM   #33
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Originally posted by Irvine511




you can. and so few people do.

i bet you'd find a more receptive audience if the pro-life/anti-choice movement as a whole removed religion from their rhetoric.
Yeah. But it should go BOTH ways. When I tell people I'm pro-life, they assume that because I'm religious, it's because I've been brainwashed. It's not about religion for me, it's about everyone's right to simply exist.
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Old 02-23-2006, 07:38 PM   #34
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well

it looks like I will be
pulling out
of South Dakota
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Old 02-23-2006, 07:44 PM   #35
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic

As a woman, I support women's choices as far as birth control and the choice to get pregnant or not. I do not believe the "choice" extends so far that another potential life's right to live is compromised.
condoms can break and women can get pregnant while on the pill. the couple was being responsible about birth control but were one of the unlucky 1%. the woman did not choose to get pregnant. what now?
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Old 02-23-2006, 07:59 PM   #36
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Originally posted by Se7en
condoms can break and women can get pregnant while on the pill. the couple was being responsible about birth control but were one of the unlucky 1%. the woman did not choose to get pregnant. what now?
I wonder what the probability of birth control not working AND a condom breaking AND a resulting pregnancy is......

The Pill alone is basically 100% effective, as long as you're taking the right dose and taking it at the same time every day. I know people who've gotten pregnant while supposedly on the Pill, but it turns out they were forgetting days or taking pills at random times each day.

Maybe women don't always choose to get pregnant, but they made choices with pregnancy as a possible outcome. If you're defending abortion on the grounds of it being a "choice", then you can't ignore the choice to engage in sexual activity that could lead to pregnancy.

I know someone who's almost in the situation you described. She actually wasn't using birth control pills at the time and they were using condoms while she was getting a new pill and the condom broke so she's having a baby and we're all very happy and excited, as is she. They realize they made a huge mistake, but luckily they're excited about having a baby.
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Old 02-23-2006, 08:01 PM   #37
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My problem with the "in cases of rape" clause, is that how do you prove it?

Think about that.

Just what does it take to prove you were raped so you can get an abortion?
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Old 02-23-2006, 08:04 PM   #38
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


Yeah. But it should go BOTH ways. When I tell people I'm pro-life, they assume that because I'm religious, it's because I've been brainwashed. It's not about religion for me, it's about everyone's right to simply exist.


i think that's a fair point, but it's the religious voices that speak the loudest, and few point to science as any sort of justification -- so it's easy for a secularist like me to wave them off as religious irrationality.

i am far, far more sympathetic to scientific pro-life/anti-choice arguments.
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Old 02-23-2006, 08:05 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


I wonder what the probability of birth control not working AND a condom breaking AND a resulting pregnancy is......

The Pill alone is basically 100% effective, as long as you're taking the right dose and taking it at the same time every day. I know people who've gotten pregnant while supposedly on the Pill, but it turns out they were forgetting days or taking pills at random times each day.

Maybe women don't always choose to get pregnant, but they made choices with pregnancy as a possible outcome. If you're defending abortion on the grounds of it being a "choice", then you can't ignore the choice to engage in sexual activity that could lead to pregnancy.

I know someone who's almost in the situation you described. She actually wasn't using birth control pills at the time and they were using condoms while she was getting a new pill and the condom broke so she's having a baby and we're all very happy and excited, as is she. They realize they made a huge mistake, but luckily they're excited about having a baby.
i'm just throwing possibilities out there.
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Old 02-23-2006, 08:06 PM   #40
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Originally posted by indra
My problem with the "in cases of rape" clause, is that how do you prove it?

Think about that.

Just what does it take to prove you were raped so you can get an abortion?
Hm....good point. I suppose you should just be able to go to the Dr. and say you were raped and they take your word for it. I'm sure people could take advantage of it, but then they can live with lying about being raped. To require rape kits or a police report is just too much, most rape victims never report the crime.
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Old 02-23-2006, 08:07 PM   #41
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Originally posted by indra
Just what does it take to prove you were raped so you can get an abortion?


wow. can you imagine the trauma if women have to plead their case that they were raped?

to complicate this further, can you imagine the men who will be accused of rape in order for a woman to obtain an abortion?
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Old 02-23-2006, 08:15 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




wow. can you imagine the trauma if women have to plead their case that they were raped?

to complicate this further, can you imagine the men who will be accused of rape in order for a woman to obtain an abortion?
ok, so I failed to think of this. I guess my main beef with abortions is that they're so easy to get and everyone I know that's had one did so because they were irresponsible. Yes, there are very special cases, but that's such a small minority. On the other hand, some doctors won't even let men get vasectomies without the wife's consent and you can barely get good birth control pills at reasonable prices (my insurance won't cover them unless they are for reasons other than preventing pregnancy ).

Also, I don't like how anyone can anonymously get an abortion and that's the end of it. Many women who make that choice have a terrible time dealing for a long time after. If abortion is going to be legal, there should be a counselling component offered or required.
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Old 02-23-2006, 08:27 PM   #43
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Originally posted by Irvine511




are you in danger of getting pregnant anytime soon?

this seems far more fundamental to the issue -- i think the racial analogies are strained, at best.
I know it impacts women far more, but if a man believes it is murder you can't just dismiss his wanting to prevent murder because he doesn't have a womb.

I still think it's a hard question...I know some religions believe it's not a child until it gains its eyesight, etc. so you can't say across the board that it begins at conception. At the same time, I was born at 7 or 7.5 months and I don't like the idea of abortions occuring that late. I personally think first trimester abortions are fine but once you get into the late second or the third it makes me very uncomfortable.

Hopefully the law won't stand....I watched a special a few months ago on how pressure groups and lawmakers have already made abortion incredibly difficult in poorer areas of Mississippi, Louisiana, etc. There are even people arguing that the "undue burden" concept should be case by case...
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Old 02-23-2006, 08:28 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


you can barely get good birth control pills at reasonable prices (my insurance won't cover them unless they are for reasons other than preventing pregnancy ).

I think this must change if people want the numbers of abortions to fall. People who want to ban abortions should push for and be willing to fund cheap (even free) birth control for everyone.

And if they want healthy babies they should so the same for prenatal and pediatric care. Free or at least very cheap. A good healthy start in life should be a given, not a privilege for only wealthy people. We'd all benefit from it.
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Old 02-23-2006, 08:48 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Se7en


condoms can break
they should only be used once
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