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Old 08-24-2003, 12:48 PM   #1
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sorry about that, folks

Once again I've posted a few notes which are a bit overwrought and I'm embarrassed and sorry about any offense they may have caused. I'm referring to my posts about the Ten Commandments controversy. While I think my opposition to what Judge Moore is doing is "rational" in the context of my state's politics some of my statements in the notes are perhaps a bit extreme. Sorry about that. Damn.
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Old 08-24-2003, 03:57 PM   #2
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Strong opinions aren't something to apologise for. I read all your comments in that thread and I don't think you've said anything objectionable. I've enjoyed reading your thoughts in that thread, it's interesting to see what someone who lives in that state thinks about the subject.
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Old 08-24-2003, 04:03 PM   #3
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Verte, you've never made a personal attack. No appologies are necessary. You give us perspective we otherwise would not have.

Post On!!

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Old 08-24-2003, 04:15 PM   #4
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what they said x2
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Old 08-24-2003, 04:54 PM   #5
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Oh, OK, just got back from a trip through rural Alabama for a meeting in Cullman. We have a referendum on the governor's tax package on September 9 and I am stressed out about this. I saw about a thousand "no" signs out there and "yes" signs are all over Birmingham. Stress? You bet. That's actually a bigger deal to me than the Moore controversy. The people who support Moore tend to oppose the tax reform package. The state Christian Coalition opposes the package, but funny, the National Christian Coalition endorsed it and now there is squabbling going on within the conservative community. It's weird.
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Old 08-24-2003, 05:17 PM   #6
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Never apologize for having conviction!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 08-24-2003, 05:29 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by u2sangel
Never apologize for having conviction!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks! This is such a volatile topic it's kinda scary.
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Old 08-24-2003, 08:01 PM   #8
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You're right about one thing Verte, it is screwed up. But from everything I have read, so far, the Alabama Christian Coalition is fully behind this tax. Myself and some friends specifically asked who will "Not" benefit from this tax and it's the consensus that if you have children and make a certain amount annually you will get a tax "check", but what you will pay throughout the year in increased taxes will take that and more. If you are single its worse. But most of all, not one word of the 34 page outline I read on our Governor's web site mentioned, specifically where this money is going. If the state needs $670+M a year, then why and what is the difference between that and $1.2B. Have you seen anything on where this extra is going? I haven't .. I do know an additional 43 M is going for the legistators expenses. THis is both dem's and rep's. This is going to be their raise whether the tax bill passes or not. I didn't get a raise last year and I don't know about this year, yet. But this tax bill will take that, if it goes through. and I don't know if it will help the schools or elderly & poor or not. Just like the last time? Not this time, for me, anyway.
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Old 08-24-2003, 09:11 PM   #9
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The state Christian Coalition is behind this tax? I didn't know that. I agree that the politicians shouldn't be getting a raise. I've mostly read articles about the thing in the newspapers. They are saying the schools need the extra revenues. I need to look at this site. Interesting that it must not say that.
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Old 08-24-2003, 09:38 PM   #10
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BTW what city in Alabama are you from sue4u2?
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Old 08-25-2003, 12:15 AM   #11
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You have nothing to apologise for Verte, like everyone has said.
This has turned into an interesting discussion in general though.
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Old 08-25-2003, 09:58 AM   #12
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Thanks, Angela. There's nothing quite like Alabama politics. I think we've got the weirdest politics in the U.S!! Nothing is routine around here.
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Old 08-25-2003, 12:46 PM   #13
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Don't worry about it verte. It's good to hear from someone who is living in the middle of the whole thing. I'm in the same boat as you, as far as feeling like I've said too much. You keep on, b/c this is your state, your life...but I'm dropping out of this discussion--there's enough screeching in the world without me adding to it.

Go verte!
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Old 08-25-2003, 02:16 PM   #14
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I've probably done enough about Judge Moore myself. The fact of the matter is that he lost a lawsuit. Lawsuits are turning into the Great American Pastime. His followers are plotting more challenges---more lawsuits, of course. Who's paying the lawyers? We are.
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Old 08-26-2003, 11:06 PM   #15
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This thread has brought me out of exile for 3 reasons:

(1) verte76, these are trying times for all of us Alabamians, and I can completely understand any outbursts you have had;

(2) Suspended Chief Justice Roy Moore is making a golden calf out of the Ten Commandments that I adhere to;

(3) sue4u2, some of your information is incorrect, and let me address it...

Quote:
Originally posted by sue4u2
You're right about one thing Verte, it is screwed up. But from everything I have read, so far, the Alabama Christian Coalition is fully behind this tax. Myself and some friends specifically asked who will "Not" benefit from this tax and it's the consensus that if you have children and make a certain amount annually you will get a tax "check", but what you will pay throughout the year in increased taxes will take that and more. If you are single its worse. But most of all, not one word of the 34 page outline I read on our Governor's web site mentioned, specifically where this money is going. If the state needs $670+M a year, then why and what is the difference between that and $1.2B. Have you seen anything on where this extra is going? I haven't .. I do know an additional 43 M is going for the legistators expenses. THis is both dem's and rep's. This is going to be their raise whether the tax bill passes or not. I didn't get a raise last year and I don't know about this year, yet. But this tax bill will take that, if it goes through. and I don't know if it will help the schools or elderly & poor or not. Just like the last time? Not this time, for me, anyway.
First of all, the "Christian" Coalition of Alabama vehemently OPPOSES Riley's Tax & Accountability Plan. You can read more about them here and their opposition to Riley's plan here. The Christian Coalition of the US did visit the state and endorse Governor Riley's plan.

Secondly, the average Alabamian will pay about $25 in additional taxes for services, mainly in service to autos. All of our neighboring states already pay these taxes. I honestly don't see the harm in this new tax considering the fact that we will STILL be one of the lowest-taxed states in the Union. The most important and desirable change in individual taxation will be the reforms that benefit Alabama's poorest and least able taxpayers. People making as little as $4,600 per year will no longer have to pay state income taxes; people over the age of 65 will no longer have to pay state property taxes; yes, many of us will pay more in other areas, but I for one am willing to make this sacrifice because I know (once again) that we will STILL be among the lowest taxed states in the Union.

You are correct that the new money is "un-earmarked" (re: where the money is going." Keep in mind that NO revenue that is currently "earmarked will be "un-earmarked." Although I do see the benefits of earmarking since it guarantees annual budgets to funding targets, there is also a downside in that very principle. Imagine a division of government that truly has variable needs from year to year. If they do not need all of that money during the fiscal year, it is still very much to their incientive to SPEND SPEND SPEND every bit of it so that they will be guaranteed the same or a higher amount the next year. They will even spend it on an end of the year party or unnecessary supplies just to justify and preserve their budgeted amoun. All of this occurs when there are very likely other areas of government that were critically short of revenue.

Regarding the difference between the $675M and the $1.2B, please look more closely at the details of how the plan would be implemented. The $675M is to fund the current year's deficit; the remainder is to be implemented over the full 5 year period to implement some of the proposed benefits (college scholarships, Alabama Reading Initiative, local funding and much more education funding).

Please show me where you found this allegation of "an additional 43 M going for legislators expenses" being part of the Riley plan. More than likely, the previous legislature voted that in (and I disagree with that raise), because typically a sitting legislature is not allowed to vote themselves a pay raise. If that is the case, Riley would not have had anything to do with it and it should not be associated with his plan. I have not seen/heard that anywhere. In fact, legislators will be subject to criminal charges if they take "pass-through pork" in the way of taking state revenues and spending it on unauthorized pet projects (which are usually wasteful projects when compared to essentials such as education, prisons, etc.).

It is my observation that this plan is the best option available for Alabama and it is the only opportunity we have to move the state forward. Legislators will be held accountable for how they spend the money; the Governor will have the right to veto frivolous spending; the Attorney general and district attorneys will have the power to prosecute them for pork spending; and you and verte76 and I will have the right to vote our legislators out of office, something we don't do enough of in this state considering "the good ole boys" who have been in the State House forever. Too may people are overlooking the "accountability" portion of this plan that tightens the reigns and provides oversight where needed.

I'm sick of "doin' things the way we always done 'em" in this state. I'm sick of the old George Wallace/Dixiecratic mindset that a good education isn't for everyone. This plans not perfect, but its much better than the status quo and it's much better than the "magical lottery" of a few years ago that STRIPPED citizens of the right to oversight and review via a "secret committee" and only provided significant funding for college scholarships while offering few decent initiatives for K-12 and poorer school districts.

~U2Alabama
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