Something to read for christmas,... - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-27-2002, 02:14 PM   #16
Blue Crack Addict
 
U2girl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: slovenija
Posts: 20,953
Local Time: 06:23 AM
STING2: barking up the wrong tree? What do you mean? US can't be too proud of some of their handling internation conflicts either. (Hiroshima, South America, Vietnam, there was a time when you supported both Sadam and Bin Laden because they were against communism)
Why are you bringing up the past anyway?

What works? Of course torture works for getting the answers you want - I'm sure those people would say anything to get off the hook.
By the way: isn't it wrong to force confessions anyway? I thought those don't count either.

Or by "I hope they soon learn what works and what does not work" did you mean you wish there'd be attacks like these in Europe? Why thank you.

U2Bama: well you think it's ok that women interrogate them, considering what their position is in their culture? Don't you think it feels humiliating for them?
And I'm not sure I understand your "moderate" countries comment. Handing over prisoners just so you have the "answers" forced out of them is wrong.

Speedracer: that's all very well and fine, but IMO the whole "POWs/not POWs" was done for exactly these purposes the article revealed: so that US can keep them longer and can use fishy (to say the least) methods of getting information.




I wonder how you would feel if this was the other way around and there was an article about terorrists torturing US soldiers. I mean, I'd expect that from them, not a developed county which could and should be better than that.
I really do think rights of people don't stop based on what they did or what they might do. That's the whole point - regardless of what someone does, the whole "innocent till proven gulity", a right to a fair trial, to be treated properly etc.. still apllies. Anywhere and everywhere.
__________________

__________________
U2girl is offline  
Old 12-27-2002, 02:34 PM   #17
War Child
 
Cow of the Seas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Njosnavelin
Posts: 834
Local Time: 11:23 PM
that was well said u2girl.
__________________

__________________
those evil natured robots
theyre programed to destroy us
she gotta be strong to fight them
so shes taking lots of vitamins
cause she knows that
it be tragic
if those evil robots win
Cow of the Seas is offline  
Old 12-27-2002, 05:57 PM   #18
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 05:23 AM
Ok, my statement was a bit to harsh about the Europeans. I'm frustrated with European attitudes on several of these issues and no, I do not think that Europeans are less capable, its just that they collectively fail to do what they are capable of doing.

U2 Girl,

Dropping the A-Bomb on Japan at Horishima and Nagasaki saved millions of peoples lives and ended World War II. Stopping Communism from spreading in South America was an important goal during the Cold War. My Father fought in Vietnam and while the USA had combat troops stationed in the country, the North Vietnamese and the Communist rebels were unable to take over the country. We left in 1973, and South Vietnam did just fine on its own until 1975. Its unfortunate that President Ford did not intervene in 1975 to prevent the Communist take over, but unfortunately, he did not have the political support of Congress to do so.

Saddam and Iraq were NOT client states of the United States, they were allies and a Client State of the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union provided Iraq with over 80% of its military combat equipment and kept 2,000 Soviet soldier in Iraq to train its army all the way up to just before the 1991 Gulf War. The USA government only offered Verbal support to Iraq and occassionally food, trucks and transport helicopters. The USA never sold Iraq any military combat equipment! The biological material that did come from the USA was sent there for medical and scientific reasons. Iraq was not under US sanctions just like several other countries that recieved biological material. Unfortunately this biological material has duel uses. Perhaps the USA made mistakes in its trade policy of "duel use" materials in the 1980s, but thats as far as it goes.

The USA supported the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan and because Bin Laden also supported the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan, this becomes "the USA directly supported Bin Laden with everything". Bin Laden's role in the Afghan war has been grossly inflated. Secondly, the USA withdrew from the region entirely in 1989. What ever support may have trickled down to Bin Laden or given to Bin Laden(if that really happened) was used up by 1993. Funding and supplies have had to come from other sources since then.

Without knowing and understanding the histories of various countries and regions around the world, you will not be able to understand current conflict or know methods and solutions that might be able to resolve or end those conflicts.

In defending the USA, I'm not saying the USA is 100% perfect or fundamentally better than anyone else. But we have had a better track record in foreign policy since 1945 than any other country on the planet.

Lets not forget the safety and security of the soldiers interogating these Al Quada terrorist is more important than the "proper treatment" of the terrorist. Terrorist are treated properly but not up to the point that our soldiers are put at danger. These terrorist are waiting for any slight opportunity to lash out and kill someone.

One of my friends who returned from serving with the US Marines in Afghanistan for 6 months was involved with the capture and interrogation of Al Quada Terrorist. The procedures he described to me sounded safe and normal. We have every right to detain and get information out of these individuals. That information could potentially save thousands if not millions of lives if it helps prevent a future terrorist attack. In this case, to do anything less would be immoral and potentially cost thousands of innocent lives.

The focus should be on preventing similar 9/11 events from happening, not whether terrorist get to take a shower with Irish Spring Soap.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 12-28-2002, 05:20 AM   #19
War Child
 
Cow of the Seas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Njosnavelin
Posts: 834
Local Time: 11:23 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
U2 Girl,

Dropping the A-Bomb on Japan at Horishima and Nagasaki saved millions of peoples lives and ended World War II.
they say world war 2 cost a total of 20 million lives. thats including refugees, particularly in east prussia who were fleeing the advancing soviet army who was more than a little pissed off at the germans after operation barbarossa only managed to get up to stalingrad.

roughly 6 million of the 20 were jews.

when the war ended in the first week of may, america had already had a strong hold in the pacific and japan had their backs to the wall. america didnt even need soviet support which it had requested during the first face to face visit of the three big powers (ussr, america, uk) in january or february of 1945 (i cant remember precisely), where they made initial proposals to decide how war torn europe would be governed after germany surrendered.

the atomic bomb was initially created (the manhatten project) to beat out the germans who were thought to have been doing the same thing. instead, himmler himself, though the idea was ludicrous, proceeded (along with goering) to put the V-2 rocket program on fastrack. this is further proof at how stupid the germans were, as himmler had absolutely no militairy background and certainly no real comprehension on warfare technology. his influence was only considered because he was trusted by hitler, and at this point of the war, hitler didnt care about competance, but rather trust in his men.

ok, im off my point, sorry.

what im saying is that your justification of "well it actually saved millions" is completely unprovable. it sounds quite rediculous actually.

japan has faced unspeakable horros since, though ofcourse, it is behind them for the most part now.

im not even going to get into whether dropping the bomb was right or not, im simply going to argue about your bold claim that the bomb in turn saved millions of lives.

and just out of curiousity, does that huge number include the lives of animals? and how many millions, when the whole war is believed to have killed 20 million?
__________________
those evil natured robots
theyre programed to destroy us
she gotta be strong to fight them
so shes taking lots of vitamins
cause she knows that
it be tragic
if those evil robots win
Cow of the Seas is offline  
Old 12-28-2002, 08:41 AM   #20
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe, Az USA
Posts: 12,856
Local Time: 10:23 PM

u know i could chime in here, however i choose not to.
this isnt my field of expertise, nor forte.
however in perlious times worry worts usually surface and expose themselves as monday morning quaterbacks always critiizing-sp, showing their colours
showing their colours..
plez continue on-
show them colors.


DB9
__________________
diamond is offline  
Old 12-28-2002, 12:17 PM   #21
you are what you is
 
Salome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 22,016
Local Time: 06:23 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
In defending the USA, I'm not saying the USA is 100% perfect or fundamentally better than anyone else. But we have had a better track record in foreign policy since 1945 than any other country on the planet.
that's a very interesting statement, I guess
__________________
“Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.”
~Frank Zappa
Salome is offline  
Old 12-28-2002, 03:14 PM   #22
Blue Crack Addict
 
U2girl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: slovenija
Posts: 20,953
Local Time: 06:23 AM
So you agree US has had connection with doubtful allies in the past? (I also remember - more than 1 - article here in a local newspaper talking just about that).

As far as I know, Japan was very weak at the time and could have been defeated in short time. I don't think the rest of it would have claimed millions.
But still, what possible reason can there be for killing thousands of civilians , and doing irreversible damage to future generations (from the radiation)? The war would have ended sooner or later, and it's not like it was a question who would win.

IMO it didn't happen because it was necessary, but more because the US happened to be the first country to develop the bomb and took advantage of it that way.



BUT, let's get back to the original question.
How are armed soldiers (and I'm sure the interrogators aren't exactly empty handed) threatened by unarmed, (tied, chained/tied legs and blindfolded) people who are probably heaviliy guarded all the time? Not to mention the ratio of manpower is probably very much in favor of the US.

If terrorists are treated properly, how do you explain the article (and rumours ever since the Guantanamo prisoners came up)? Who knows how much your friend saw (and how much he is allowed to tell)?
Yes you have the right to detain and get information - I'm just saying it can be done differently.
__________________
U2girl is offline  
Old 12-28-2002, 03:34 PM   #23
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Rono's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: the Netherlands
Posts: 6,163
Local Time: 06:23 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
rono rono rono.
welcome to the age of information.
welcome to the reality of war.
welcome to the reality of being a terrorist caught by the usa.
boo-hoo.



dB8
There are moments that i am glad that i have read paxetaureras post.

It is all about revenge and not about Justice i guess. But we know now why Amirica will not accept the international court of Justice.

And Sting please shut up about kosokov or so,... why did the usa sold weapons to the Moslims in Sebrenica ? That is one of the reasons the the serb`s felt free to invade Sebrinica. And where was the airsupport ?


Sting , we are paying our debts

The Dutch did give the Americans airsupport today in afghanistan.

And sorry that our whole fleet was not at Pearl Habour,...

9:00 AM Crew of the Dutch liner JAGERSFONTEIN opens up with her guns, the first Allies to join the fight...Radios throughout the island crack out urgent messages "Get off roads and stay off.. Don't block traffic...Stay at home...This is the real McCoy

Found on :
http://schoolweb.missouri.edu/ashlan...ler/table.html
__________________
Rono is offline  
Old 12-28-2002, 05:28 PM   #24
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 05:23 AM
Cow and U2Girl,

Over 50 million people died and World War II, most of them from the Soviet Union(30 million).

The fact that the A-bomb saved millions of lives is easily proved by the fact that Japan was ready to fight to the last man if conventional war would have continued. I suggest you read what happened when the USA invaded Okinawa! Okinawa was a perfect example of what would happen all over Japan in early 1946 when the USA would invade.

The US Strategic Air Command had been continuelly bombing Japan and would have continued its bombing raids to soften up the island for invasion well into early 1946. The worst attacks on Japan that took the most lives were NOT the A-Bomb attacks, but the military and industrial bombing that had been occuring on an on going basis, often producing losses well in excess of either of the A-Bomb attacks. If this bombing had continued beyond August of 1945, millions of Japanese citizens would have been killed.

Then the invasion would have occured in 1946 and based on Japanese resistance on the Pacific islands, resistance would have been heavy and Japanese soldiers would have fought to the last man. So there is a few more million people that would have been killed. USA losses would likely be well over a hundred thousand. Maybe more, despite US strength at the time. In addition, millions more Japanese civilians would be caught in the crossfire of the invasion. Then, just like on Okinawa, many Japanese civilians would have committed suicide.

Bottom line is that continued conventional bombing plus a US invasion of mainland Japan in early 1946 would have killed tens of millions of people. Conventional bombing of Japan had already killed several million Japanese soldiers and civilians.

Ask nearly any US soldier who fought in the Pacific in World War II and they will tell you that the A-Bomb saved their life and the lives of millions of Japanese civilians and soldiers. The A-Bombs stopped a war that would have continued for another 8 months or more. It was indeed very necessary in order to save the lives of millions. It was not about being the first to have the bomb or the opportunity to use it, because there have always been opportunities to use it, but never a clear cut senerio where its use would save millions of lives, like it did in the situation with Japan.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 12-28-2002, 05:47 PM   #25
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 05:23 AM
U2Girl,

Pakistani soldiers last year had captured several Al Quada and were transporting them by bus to a US base. Although the Al Quada were tied up, they managed to get free and overwhelmed the guards and killed about 10 Pakistani soldiers before they were all killed.

My friend will tell you that guarding and controlling them is a dangerous mission. He spent 6 months in Afghanistan heavily involved in doing this. He is allowed to tell plenty but if there is something he is not allowed to talk about, he informs me that is classified. There was nothing classified about the procedures for detaining, processing and interorgating Al Quada personal in Afghanistan. My friend knows a lot about this because he was involved in the very process were talking about, unlike the people who work for the media in Europe. If you want to question my friends experience and simply doubt it because it does not support your point of view or belief, fine. But realize he knows more about the process than the European media or other media.

The USA has the right to detain and get information that could potentially save millions of peoples lives. The USA uses no single interrogation method to extract that information, and given the potential risk(millions of peoples lives), all methods of extraction have so far been justified.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 12-28-2002, 06:06 PM   #26
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 05:23 AM
Rono,

In case you did not know, Sebrinica is in Bosnia, not Kosovo. At the time of the massacre in Sebrinica, the Clinton administration was following the lead of the European countries which wanted to continue to bring about a ceacefire through the UN without military action from the USA or NATO. Muslim fighters in Bosnia obtained weapons from various sources, but it was rather limited to begin with anyway. The Muslims were poorly equiped and not an offensive military threat to the Bosnian Serb military that had tanks, Ammored Personal Carriers, and heavy Artillery and Helicopter Gunships. There was a move in the US congress to supply the Muslims with arms, but it was blocked by the Clinton Adminstration.

Remember, the Dutch gave up Sebrinica to the Serbs. I don't recall the Dutch calling for airsupport, but even if they did, the current structure of UN forces at the time and given the close proximity of Serb forces, Air Power would not have been able to have made a difference. Plus, most European governments at the time would have opposed it. The USA had been calling for airstrikes since 1993, but had decided to follow the European lead on handling the Crises.

Only after this and the Market bombing in Sarajevo did the Clinton Administration decide that the Europeans had no idea what they were doing, and launched large scale military strikes throughtout Bosnia that forced the Serbs to give in and negotiate, there by ending the war that had taken 250,000 lives and the Europeans had failed with their methods to prevent and stop.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 12-29-2002, 03:47 AM   #27
Refugee
 
bonoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Edmonton, Canada- Charlestown, Ireland
Posts: 1,398
Local Time: 10:23 PM
I must totally agree with you Sting, especially on the A-bomb issue. People complain about you bring up past incidents(like myslef) but then some of them turn around and try to do it themselves when it serves their purpose.

And for anyone out there who think POW(AQ) should be treated with great care, get real. These people would do anything to kill an american and without the heavy pressures of interogations they wont say a word. These people are fanatics and must be treated hostilly.
__________________
bonoman is offline  
Old 12-29-2002, 04:43 PM   #28
Blue Crack Addict
 
U2girl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: slovenija
Posts: 20,953
Local Time: 06:23 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
If you want to question my friends experience and simply doubt it because it does not support your point of view or belief, fine.
I did neither of those things. All I said was I wonder how much he really saw from the interrogations and how much he is allowed to say. (lots of people were imprisoned anyway, how can you know all were treated right judging just by one person's account?)

OK then, what do you make of some of the US sources in the article that speak of the interrogation methods?


As for A-bomb: well I think the main interest was to save American lives - and indeed plenty of those were saved, and it would seem weird to say it helped save Japanese lives (Either way, Japanese deaths would occur anyway - bomb or no bomb, as you stated - of course they will fight to the last man on their home soil. Or maybe not, if the country would get weak enough they might have surrendered. Guess we'll never know...) and that it was a good thing - try explaining that to Japenese people who still mourn on the anniversaries of the bombing.
Why do you say it wasn't about the first having the bomb - when there was a competition between countries who would make it first? Maybe not the first to have it, but obviously the first country ready to use the bomb. (though if someone uses the bomb first, isn't it logical to assume they were the first to make it in the first place?)



You know, we can talk about this for days and get nowhere - can we agree to disagree? Obviously we see things differently. If you believe in the "end justifies means" principle, fine.
__________________
U2girl is offline  
Old 12-29-2002, 05:59 PM   #29
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 05:23 AM
How do you know anyone was in fact treated poorly? Terrorist are not to be treated like kings. Remember, the chief task in interrogating the prisoners is to get information that could potentially save millions of lives. If the particular means lead to an end which prevents the loss of thousands, or millions of people, clearly, the end does justify the means.

As far as Japan, remember that far more Japanese soldiers and civilians were killed by conventional warefare than the A-Bombs dropped on Horoshima and Nagasaki. Millions of Japanese citizens and soldiers were killed in battle and by conventional bombing of Japan throughout World War II. The number of deaths from the A-Bomb attacks on Japan are a tiny fraction of the total number of Japanese that were killed in the war.

The continuation of the war beyond August of 1945 if the A-Bomb had not been dropped would have killed millions more Japanese as evidence by what had already happened in the war and at Okinawa, plus the fact that all combat would not be taking place on the Japanese home islands. Japanese deaths would have substationally increased. The A-Bombs forced an immediate Japanese surrender which prevented the war from continueing which would have killed millions of people. Compare that to the 300,000 killed in the two A-Bomb attacks combined. Tens of millions of Japanese citizens and soldiers compared to 300,000. Its sad that was the only way to prevent the war from continuing, but it did save millions of Japanese people.

Imagine the number of people that would have been saved on 9/11 if US military aircraft had been able to shoot down the hi-jacked planes the terrorist had. 300 innocent people would have died instead of 3,000.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 12-30-2002, 03:53 AM   #30
you are what you is
 
Salome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 22,016
Local Time: 06:23 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
How do you know anyone was in fact treated poorly? Terrorist are not to be treated like kings. Remember, the chief task in interrogating the prisoners is to get information that could potentially save millions of lives. If the particular means lead to an end which prevents the loss of thousands, or millions of people, clearly, the end does justify the means.
I have this sneaking suspicion that the Iraqi authorities are going to agree with this statement when they capture an American, English - or from whatever country he / she might be - soldier during the upcoming war
__________________

__________________
“Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.”
~Frank Zappa
Salome is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com