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Old 03-06-2005, 01:49 PM   #76
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I have to agree with BonosSaint's post. No party is the absolute truth. Both have done good things, and both have their shortcomings.
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Old 03-06-2005, 03:38 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
I read it, but I can care less about starting a big catfight over social democracy.
Never mind catfights, just acknowledging that it exists would be a start. Instead of all this 'socialism hates the market' stuff.
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Old 03-06-2005, 03:41 PM   #78
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It exists. Are we cool now?
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Old 03-06-2005, 07:14 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
It exists. Are we cool now?
We cool, Macfist. Always read your posts. I like a reasonable sparring partner. I confess woeful ignorance in the subtleties of the various economic system philosophies. US is a hybrid, however. We're not a pure capitalist society. Beyond my utterly conservative disdain for rewarding people who do not contribute and take no personal responsibility for themselves, USA does recognize a need for a safety net for the following reasons that pure capitalism would not address:

1. We have people in this country who cannot take care of
themselves.
2. Corporate profits are often based on paying the lowest
acceptable wage to workers. Because capitalism allows, and
for the bottom line encourages outsourcing, marketability
of skills becomes skewered.
3. Hard work does not always equal success. Playing office
politics does. How many people in this forum work in places
that protect the poorest workers and hang the best workers
out to dry. Often the new class of managers is short-sighted
and reward asskissing more than production. There are no
long-term plans. We are now the boomtowns that become
the ghost towns, because we run for the shortterm profits
and are incapable of the longterm commitment.
4. Society accepts a great disparity in income between gender,
class, age so income is not necessarily tied to contribution and
as these underpaid workers who fed the capitalist system for
so long come of age, it is unconscienceable not to care for
them.
5. There is no such thing as a self-made man. Love Bill Gates, but
he is not out there producing all those software programs, et
al that reward him so richly. Business needs labor and as long
as corporations ignore that fact, they will eventually collapse.
Corporations collapse because the product, service, safety,
etc. degrades. And that is due to the contempt management
has for labor. Labor no longer has incentive to be productive.
(See paragraph 3)
6. We are not educating our young very well and there is not
much of a work ethic being instilled, as far as I can see.
Business is not going to have much of a quality of labor pool
coming up. (Present thinking and hardworking young people
excluded from this criticism)

We need capitalism for new ideas, new inventions, capital, employment. But when capitalism no longer cares about quality,
when there is no longer a correlation between production and reward, the system becomes corrupted. We need capitalism, but a better brand than we are getting now. I suspect that without a renaissance of sorts, we cease to become the superpower we still are in fifty years or less. (Now that I've succeeded in boring and depressing everyone, I'll end. Sigh of relief, all around, including from me.)
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Old 03-07-2005, 08:21 AM   #80
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there has never been a successful capitalist country that didn't take socialist ideals. ever.
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Old 03-07-2005, 09:33 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
I like the thread title because it doesn't apply to me.
yes it does.
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Old 03-07-2005, 09:41 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by earthshell
there has never been a successful capitalist country that didn't take socialist ideals. ever.
Certainly true. Marxist theory actually says that capitalism will collapse on its own with no outside interference--that is, no need for revolutions, etc. Of course, look at the late-19th and early-20th centuries. Rampant greed. Highly concentrated wealth in a few individuals and companies. People and children working long hours for little pay. In other words, ultimate deregulation/"laissez-faire capitalism." Business will always put profit and greed ahead of others' well-being.

I tend to think Marx would have been right on the money, had the Progressive era of the early 20th century never happened. Minimum wage laws. End of child labor. Unions and 40 hour work weeks. Regulation of utility companies. Antitrust enforcement.

But fast forward to the 1980s to the present, and we seem to have forgotten all the lessons of the Progressive era, in favor of greed. At the rate we're going, with all the union busting and outsourcing, we're heading right down that same path. Of course, it's doubtful that capitalism will ever collapse completely, but chances are, there will be a huge backlash against Republican/conservative ideology eventually and we'll re-regulate all over again. Unfortunately, it will probably have to get much worse here before it will get better.

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