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Old 03-01-2005, 05:42 PM   #31
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zoomerang, i dont appreciate other people being me
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Old 03-01-2005, 05:48 PM   #32
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Originally posted by all_i_want


zoomerang, i dont appreciate other people being me
it's a good thing i never really asked you.
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Old 03-01-2005, 05:48 PM   #33
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Capitalism - while grossly competitive - is a method of making citizens useful in society, as are socialism and communism, but those two offer less motivation. The beauty of capitalism is the dream of financial freedom, but that does not go without a cost. You have to work to get where you want to be, even if it means competing with those who have an advantage over you. No, it's not always fair, but when you think about it, neither are other methods of government.

About the whole slavery thing, I can't say it's the same thing as it was many years ago. Let's put on our thinking caps a second. Granted that it's usually your responsibility in this system to support yourself, we aren't restricted education, we aren't physically harmed, and we can live wherever we can afford to. Yes, you can bust your butt all your life, and probably won't catch a big break. It's just like our music industry for example. But is it slavery? We're all free, we spend our money on whatever we choose, let's be thankful for our options.

its not slavery. its a lot better than that. because slaves never really bought into the idea of being slaves. we all bought into capitalism. we produce the same stupid machines, and then become prisoners of our own genius.

yeah we can spend the money on whatever we like, but more THINGS does not necessarily make a person happy. we've all traded our souls for plasma TVs, super-fast laptops, convenience of going to wal-mart and our classy cars.

and we cant even get them back.

how would you find something you dont even realize you lost?
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Old 03-01-2005, 05:49 PM   #34
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Originally posted by pub crawler


Well they are ONE, but they're not the SAME!
i'm gonna cut you into shreds.





























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Old 03-01-2005, 09:50 PM   #35
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Originally posted by all_i_want
its not slavery. its a lot better than that. because slaves never really bought into the idea of being slaves. we all bought into capitalism. we produce the same stupid machines, and then become prisoners of our own genius.

yeah we can spend the money on whatever we like, but more THINGS does not necessarily make a person happy. we've all traded our souls for plasma TVs, super-fast laptops, convenience of going to wal-mart and our classy cars.

and we cant even get them back.

how would you find something you dont even realize you lost?
The pursuit of happiness can be tied in with the pursuit of a fulfilling life. I don't know how a government can possibly make everyone happy at the same time. Provision is a good thing, but the dream for some and reality for others of financial freedom is the sacrifice to be paid. What incentives do other forms of government have to offer besides regulation? Sure enough, they may provide, but the cost is hefty on those who could've pursued their dreams to fight for a better society, and as a result, every major economic move is made by the government. History would inform us with its past with numerous careless mistakes that the government is not always right.

I'm not trashing the government at all - at least not that I'm aware of - but think of it this way. Picture George Bush with ten times the power he has right now, picture Brad Pitt, Bill Gates, and all the other American AIDS activists as our financial equals. Hypothetically, if Bush tells Bono that he has no interest in helping Africa, that would be an awful thing. Even more because there would be no wealthy citizens to back Bono up! I couldn't imagine much worse of a scenario. The same ignorant decision could've been made for tsunami relief. But the people wanted to help out with or without the government, and capitalism entitles them to do so. The people should always have a voice, and the people should always be able to invest in the righteous causes they believe in.

...I'd rather sell my soul for a laptop than sell my soul for a cheeseburger, but that's just me being a capitalist...
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Old 03-01-2005, 10:18 PM   #36
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You're all lucky Kieran isn't American or he'd sue you all. First you call him a female, then you call him deathbear?
Let's be nice to newbs and Kierans.

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Old 03-01-2005, 11:18 PM   #37
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Who called me a female? I mean, wait, do I care? No, not really.
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Old 03-02-2005, 04:42 AM   #38
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Who wants chocolate?
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Old 03-02-2005, 06:53 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe


Hypothetically, if Bush tells Bono that he has no interest in helping Africa, that would be an awful thing. Even more because there would be no wealthy citizens to back Bono up! I couldn't imagine much worse of a scenario. The same ignorant decision could've been made for tsunami relief. But the people wanted to help out with or without the government, and capitalism entitles them to do so. The people should always have a voice, and the people should always be able to invest in the righteous causes they believe in.
But Bush wouldn't be in power if it wasn't for capitalism.

One can argue we'd have a much better crop of politicians. It wouldn't be just the rich who can afford to run.
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Old 03-02-2005, 01:49 PM   #40
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
But Bush wouldn't be in power if it wasn't for capitalism.

One can argue we'd have a much better crop of politicians. It wouldn't be just the rich who can afford to run.
I don't think they would be much better if any better. Corrupt governments may arise from too much power. We can be governed by the people, or we could be governed by the government. Either way, the government will use propaganda to influence thought and action. The worst governments come from totalitarian societies. Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, and Lenin - all abused their power to oppress their own people. There are no individuals in the society - and conformity is not an option. They used torture as a means of propaganda. They controlled all public and private life.

If there is any system that benefits society more than capitalism - yet allows for individual freedoms, I would like to be informed on your argument.
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Old 03-02-2005, 02:05 PM   #41
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe


If there is any system that benefits society more than capitalism - yet allows for individual freedoms, I would like to be informed on your argument.
I believe there are ways to provide more equality and still promote individualism.

The idea that two people the same in almost everyway one works 60 hours a week making barely 50,000 a year and one that works 30 hours a week and makes 7 million a year doesn't sit well with me.
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Old 03-02-2005, 02:07 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
I believe there are ways to provide more equality and still promote individualism.
Such as...?

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
The idea that two people the same in almost everyway one works 60 hours a week making barely 50,000 a year and one that works 30 hours a week and makes 7 million a year doesn't sit well with me.
Yes, but the idea of me getting a double master's degree and making the same as a high school dropout doesn't sit well with me.
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Old 03-02-2005, 02:18 PM   #43
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
The pursuit of happiness can be tied in with the pursuit of a fulfilling life. I don't know how a government can possibly make everyone happy at the same time.
I agree. Socialism and similar systems have been tried and proved unworkable. Part of the success of capitalism derives from the financial incentives provided to enterprise and hard work and one of the best roles for government is in ensuring that incentives to enterprise are minimal.
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Old 03-02-2005, 02:29 PM   #44
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Such as...?
I don't honestly don't know, I'm not exactly overtly opposed to captialism. I think we as consumers have allowed it to go extremes and I believe that to be dangerous, I think there needs to some sort of device to protect us from such extremes. I think a whole new healthcare system is a good start. Maybe salary caps for certain occupations, I don't know to be honest, this is something I haven't a whole lot of background in.
Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

Yes, but the idea of me getting a double master's degree and making the same as a high school dropout doesn't sit well with me.
And it shouldn't. (Although I do know some individuals with PHd who make less than school teachers due to what field they chose, so it goes both ways.) That's not what I would ever propose.

Let's take a car for example. One car get's sold and the money is distributer from everyone from the one who sold it to the one that sweeps the floor at the plant. The one with the masters in design and came up with the concept that made the companies CEO millions, makes less than the one with a high school degree who sold it off the lot.

Just like in entertainment. Let's take a very successful TV show, and I mean good TV one that's well written and what not, not just pretty faces. Now the writer makes less per episode than the star, and I understand that but why is the 20 to 75 times more. The show wouldn't be anywhere without the writing yet we value this part more than that part. We as the consumer have allowed for some ridiculously high disproportions in society.
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Old 03-02-2005, 03:42 PM   #45
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
I think a whole new healthcare system is a good start.
This is within the bounds of good intentions, yes, but unfortunately, hospitals run themselves as businesses. This would require a huge facelift on society's behalf. Just for a side comment, I would recommend watching the movie John Q.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Let's take a car for example. One car get's sold and the money is distributer from everyone from the one who sold it to the one that sweeps the floor at the plant. The one with the masters in design and came up with the concept that made the companies CEO millions, makes less than the one with a high school degree who sold it off the lot.
This is a good example, and both sides have to be considered. The CEO bears a lot of responsibility to make ethical decisions on a daily basis, and is often approached with ethical dilemmas. If business is going well, I think it's very sensible to offer some great incentives to the designer, such as vacation benefits or pay time off. Let's not forget that the designer may be looking for higher status - and that car would be a great thing to have on a resume, and the company is probably going to shine his arse to keep him.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Just like in entertainment. Let's take a very successful TV show, and I mean good TV one that's well written and what not, not just pretty faces. Now the writer makes less per episode than the star, and I understand that but why is the 20 to 75 times more. The show wouldn't be anywhere without the writing yet we value this part more than that part. We as the consumer have allowed for some ridiculously high disproportions in society.
That's an interesting example as well. The writer usually doesn't have to deal with the publicity that the star of the show does. The most fortunate people on earth are those who can become incredibly successful, yet live as an everyday human being. The public life of a superstar has a lot of costs, and every move of theirs is monitored by the press and criticized by anyone who gives a hoot.
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