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Old 04-29-2006, 03:22 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
I was merely pointing that the form of question has been used before - not a comment on the substantive value of the question. If I recal, you like to toss in similar comments (straight, white, Christian, for example) in threads.
Understandable. I guess I'm not in a mood to get into a large argument today.

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Old 04-29-2006, 03:27 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Ok, then why this book and not others? I'm just trying to get people to answer this question honestly.
My guess is that similar evaluations take place regarding many other types of books, but are not considered newsworthy. With all the desire for parents to be involved in their children's education, the areas into which such energies are poured is boggling at times.

So, to the question of "why this book?" First, I'd say it gets more media bang for the buck. Second, I think there is a broader cultural reaction (I think it was called the "ick factor" in another thread) that generates the response. Stepping back for a more objective evaluation and you end up with a different result.
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Old 04-29-2006, 04:48 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Well then how do you support people who teach their children that certain people aren't "normal", or they're an "abomination", or wrong, etc?
That's what I'd like to know.

I love it when people complain about others bashing them and then find that the other side does the same.
I'm afraid 'gay' people are no more evolved than 'straight' people.

This is from a lesbian life website:

"Fairy Tales are full of blatant sexism and heterosexism. How many times do we have to read about a princess finding prince charming and living life happily-ever-after? How refreshing that we’re finally seeing some books that stray from that formula. King & King is one such story."

Hey, some people want to find prince charming.
And if they don't that's fine too.
This division will end when 'both sides' stop the derogatory labeling.
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Old 04-29-2006, 05:24 PM   #139
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Originally posted by BorderGirl


That's what I'd like to know.

I love it when people complain about others bashing them and then find that the other side does the same.
I'm afraid 'gay' people are no more evolved than 'straight' people.
Why did you quote me, when stating this? I don't see anything relevant with what you've written and my quote.

Quote:
Originally posted by BorderGirl

This is from a lesbian life website:

"Fairy Tales are full of blatant sexism and heterosexism. How many times do we have to read about a princess finding prince charming and living life happily-ever-after? How refreshing that we’re finally seeing some books that stray from that formula. King & King is one such story."

Hey, some people want to find prince charming.
And if they don't that's fine too.
This division will end when 'both sides' stop the derogatory labeling.
How is this bashing? She's just stating the obvious, and that it's refreshing that now some fairy tales are broadening the spectrum.

Yes all fairy tales are heterosexual. And I would agree than many especially older ones, have very strong sexism. The woman is always weak, dependent, and can only be saved by a man, not herself.

I'm really missing your point.
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Old 04-29-2006, 05:48 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Ok, then why this book and not others? I'm just trying to get people to answer this question honestly.
Again, I asked one of my more liberal friends where she stood on the issue and I nearly fell out of my chair....when she said she supports the parents on this one.

What other book would you compare it to?
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Old 04-29-2006, 06:04 PM   #141
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Old 04-29-2006, 06:14 PM   #142
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Why did you quote me, when stating this? I don't see anything relevant with what you've written and my quote.



How is this bashing? She's just stating the obvious, and that it's refreshing that now some fairy tales are broadening the spectrum.

Yes all fairy tales are heterosexual. And I would agree than many especially older ones, have very strong sexism. The woman is always weak, dependent, and can only be saved by a man, not herself.

I'm really missing your point.
[/QUOTE

I was just trying to make a statement that what some people see as normal, others don't. Maybe some women want to be saved by a prince charming. ???
While it may be "refreshing" to read "books that stray", the line, "How many times do we have to read about a princess finding prince charming and living life happily-ever-after?"gives the message that this heterosexual wish may be abnormal or passe.
It just seems a reactionary thing to say.
Eventually someone will write, "How many times do we have to read about a gay prince finding his prince charming and living life happily-ever-after?"
Yawn! this normal stuff doesn't sell books that are media news worthy.
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Old 04-29-2006, 06:25 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox

What other book would you compare it to?
I'm out of the loop when it comes to new fairy tales...

But I guess my question is:

What if there were fairy tales written that promoted conservatism, shed light on interacial marriage or adoption, friendships between religions, etc...

Would parents still be up in arms?
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Old 04-29-2006, 06:36 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally posted by BorderGirl

I was just trying to make a statement that what some people see as normal, others don't.
Well the same could be said as interacial marriage. Are we going to allow racists parents remove the book? How far do we allow the intolerance?

Quote:
Originally posted by BorderGirl

Maybe some women want to be saved by a prince charming. ???
While it may be "refreshing" to read "books that stray", the line, "How many times do we have to read about a princess finding prince charming and living life happily-ever-after?"gives the message that this heterosexual wish may be abnormal or passe.

It just seems a reactionary thing to say.
Eventually someone will write, "How many times do we have to read about a gay prince finding his prince charming and living life happily-ever-after?"
Yawn! this normal stuff doesn't sell books that are media news worthy.
If a girl wants to be saved, that's great.

No one is saying those dreams are abnormal or passe. That's ridiculous.

It has nothing to do with selling or news worthy...

The fact is that there are different people with different dreams, having only one type of fairy tale doesn't fit for everyone. No one is saying to stop writing the prince charming fairy tales. The only thing I find as reactionary is your post.
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Old 04-30-2006, 01:54 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I wonder how many of you posting have read the book in question.

What difference does it make? Apart from the obvious of then knowing the actual details of the book. Have you read it, Dread? I'd hate to think you're getting uppity in your old age when you'd be no different to probably most folk in this thread (who I also guess haven't read it - I haven't).


Anyway. I ask again though, what right does any parent have to refrain from teaching acceptance to their children? Or more specifically to this; allowing their child to be exposed to (what might be challenging) views which require acceptance? I dont get this 'This business will be taught by me at home - not the school'. If this is about holding control on how the child learns the delicate issues of ladies loving ladies and men loving men then why is it such a different topic to maths or English if these parents are not phobic (read: intolerant) of homosexuals? If you're not intolerant, then surely you'd be viewing the rather ordinary and banal topic of one gender'd relationships as you would any other topic in life - as a difference we just live with. Accept it and move on. Dont dwell or delve. Who cares. It doesn't matter. Teaching your kids not to be bothered. It's a great gift.
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Old 04-30-2006, 02:33 AM   #146
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I don't really understand where people are coming to conclusion that they know what should be accepted by someone else's children.

If someone doesn't find homosexuality acceptable because of their own beliefs, shouldn't they have the final say over whether their child is exposed to it, not other people? I mean that's alot of what parenting is during the early years, you decide how your kid should grow up and what you think is best for them and then you raise them according to those ideals. Despite the fact that one may think it is "sheltering" not to teach your kid acceptance of a certain lifesyle (gay or not), it is really no one's business what another parent deems as socially adequate behavior for their own child. If someone argues that it is, does that mean I should know if a homosexual parent is teaching their kid about anything heterosexual? If they feel that their kid should not be aware of those things until a certain age, or at least learn about them from their parents first, then that's how it should be. As long as the upbringing of the kid does not lead to he or she devoloping prejudice or hatred for homosexuality, I see no problem with them being raised how the parents feel they should be raised.

As for them suing, that's just lame.

(this all my opinion of course)
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Old 04-30-2006, 02:41 AM   #147
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Do you really believe all that? No one has ever been able to come up with any legitimate reason why open arms acceptance is a bad thing (infact I doubt anyone's tried) so why is it too much to expect that parents will teach their children that? If it goes against the parents' beliefs, then what does that say about the parents's beliefs? Faulty, at best? Quite frankly I think it is rather poor. If it comes down to respecting beliefs, then the one which doesn't discriminate has to be better in anyone's book....[wait for it]...unless they are a bigot.
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Old 04-30-2006, 02:47 AM   #148
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well said as ususal, angie.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
can someone tell me, as parent, how they have discussed same-sex couples with their children?
well, it was a little different in my case. instead of saying "guess what, there are same sex couples" i got to say, "guess what, there are same sex couples and you're going to their house for the weekend!"

fun stuff.

kids are easy. tell them the truth and you've got no problems. some men and women meet and fall in love. some women meet women and some men meet men and it's the same thing. i told it like it is.

how else could i do it, really?

i actually ordered this book from one of our other branches today. our branch didn't have it, but some others do. i want to see what all the fuss is about. especially the "passionate kiss."

in a children's book.

right.
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Old 04-30-2006, 03:24 AM   #149
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I was not saying that acceptance was a bad thing. I don't know where one would get that from my post. I also stated that I would find no problem with it as long as they didn't develope predjudices and hatred. I find it strange that people think it's impossible for anyone that may not agree with homosexuality to not be a bigot, or intolerant. You can disagree with a lifestyle and still accept that it is ok for someone to live it because of their own choice. It's like first there was a stigma about people in the homosexual community, and now there's a stigma about anyone who doesn't think it's 100% right, when neither should be stigmatized. That's why I don't have any qualms with parents who feel their kid shouldn't be taught about certain things in school, because depite the newsworthy stories about idiotic parents like this, it's not like all of them are saying "gays are horrible people, so you can't know about them" It also isn't like the child won't grow up to make his own decisions about homosexuality. Yes the parents beliefs affect what the kid will go on to think him/herself, but I don't think any of us think exactly the way our parents thought, do we? It's somewhat of a double standard to say that since one person feels their way of thinking is more morally/ethically sound than anothers, that they know what's best for someone elses child. Not everyone shares the same mindset on certain things, especially something like morals and ethics, so while I may also agree that it's stupid to take your kid out of class for a thing like this, I also realize that just because I feel that way, doesn't mean the parents should share my sentiments. It's not for me to say the decision they made was absurd (which I think it was) and that they can't do what they did, but if someone argues that it's is ok for me to say that, then it's just as ok for them to do what they did and say what they think. Both sides should be allowed the freedom of their beliefs, not just the side we fall under and think is correct.
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Old 04-30-2006, 03:36 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally posted by catlhere
I find it strange that people think it's impossible for anyone that may not agree with homosexuality to not be a bigot, or intolerant. You can disagree with a lifestyle and still accept that it is ok for someone to live it because of their own choice.
Then why not allow your children to learn that some will live like this?

What if you disagree with interracial marriage? Should you be able to ban such books that show that it's a normal lifestyle? What about being Jewish, Muslim, or even atheist?

I don't know how many times I have to ask this question until I get an answer?!
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