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Old 11-07-2006, 12:12 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by phanan


If that's all the mission was, then why are we still there?

There's a lot more to it than just removing Saddam.
To build a new government? We went there to throw Saddam out because he was violating UN agreements. We threw him out; mission accomplished.
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Old 11-07-2006, 12:14 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen


Do you have some quotes to back that statement up? I can't recall any mention of a long protracted struggle in Iraq made prior to our invasion, but I'll admit I'm wrong if provided with the quotes.
I'll debate with you. But what I'll not do is watch TV for you. You're the one making false allegations. Show me prior to the invasion where he said we would be in Iraq short term. I'm not talking about anyone here but Bush & Rumsfeld.
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Old 11-07-2006, 12:21 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snowlock


I'll debate with you. But what I'll not do is watch TV for you. You're the one making false allegations. Show me prior to the invasion where he said we would be in Iraq short term. I'm not talking about anyone here but Bush & Rumsfeld.
That's what I thought.
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Old 11-07-2006, 12:22 PM   #94
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From Rumsfeld:
Quote:
"It is unknowable how long that conflict [the war in Iraq] will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months." -in Feb. 2003
Emphasis mine. Notice how he doesn't say "the initial military conflict" but just the general conflict. And his longest estimate is in months, not years. Do you agree that the average American might take that to mean that the US would be out of Iraq in about 6 months, maybe a year tops, given that the information and (presumably) informed opinion is coming from the Secretary of Defense?
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Old 11-07-2006, 12:27 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snowlock


To build a new government? We went there to throw Saddam out because he was violating UN agreements. We threw him out; mission accomplished.
How can you say the mission has been accomplished while we assist in the building of a new government that is not 100% stable yet?

Removing Saddam was only the first part.
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Old 11-07-2006, 12:32 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snowlock


What politician at times had not misled the American people? They're all scumbags; some worse than others. But I'm not sure what that has to do with the fact that bush told us the occupation would be a long term thing prior to the invasion.

An Occupation can be considered separate from a war. After WWII we occupied Japan well into the 1950's. Are you prepared to say that WWII in fact went out into the next decade from 1945? The war with Iraq ended when Saddam's government fell. We're now in a police action against insurgents, post-war.
Good Lord, you're comparing the Allied Occupation of Japan to the War in Iraq? Do you realize how hilarious that sounds, comparing a peaceful occupation to this insurgency war?

In Iraq, the occupation is the continuation of the war there. It didn't end when Saddam was removed, and it certainly wasn't accomplished that day on the air craft carrier.

I don't know how Bush worded it back then, but by declaring the war over that day was ridiculous, because the occupation is still part of the ongoing war, in this case.

And yes, politicians mislead us all the time, but some are more serious than others. I could care less about Clinton, for example, trying to hid the fact that he got a blowjob vs. Bush trying to hide the fact that this war is an absolute disaster and shouldn't have been started at that specific time in the first place.
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Old 11-07-2006, 12:32 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen
From Rumsfeld:


Emphasis mine. Notice how he doesn't say "the initial military conflict" but just the general conflict. And his longest estimate is in months, not years. Do you agree that the average American might take that to mean that the US would be out of Iraq in about 6 months, maybe a year tops, given that the information and (presumably) informed opinion is coming from the Secretary of Defense?
Hey guess what he also says it's UNKNOWABLE HOW LONG THAT CONFLICT WILL LAST.

Not to mention that you neglect to provide the full quote so we don't know what he's referring to as far as "conflict" goes. It could be the battle for Baghdad itself for all we know.

Next.
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Old 11-07-2006, 12:34 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by phanan


Good Lord, you're comparing the Allied Occupation of Japan to the War in Iraq? Do you realize how hilarious that sounds, comparing a peaceful occupation to this insurgency war?

In Iraq, the occupation is the continuation of the war there. It didn't end when Saddam was removed, and it certainly wasn't accomplished that day on the air craft carrier.

I don't know how Bush worded it back then, but by declaring the war over that day was ridiculous, because the occupation is still part of the ongoing war, in this case.
Good lord, I'm comparing the word occupation to the word occupation.

Hilarious.

And again, he didn't declare the war was over. He declared the mission was accomplished.

Try just looking at facts without the ideology microscope.
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Old 11-07-2006, 12:36 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snowlock


Hey guess what he also says it's UNKNOWABLE HOW LONG THAT CONFLICT WILL LAST.

Not to mention that you neglect to provide the full quote so we don't know what he's referring to as far as "conflict" goes. It could be the battle for Baghdad itself for all we know.

You don't really remember any of this do you? You're just implying your revisionist outlook...
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Old 11-07-2006, 12:36 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snowlock


Good lord, I'm comparing the word occupation to the word occupation.

Hilarious.

And again, he didn't declare the war was over. He declared the mission was accomplished.

Try just looking at facts without the ideology microscope.
It is hilarious when one occupation is totally different from the other.

Or do you not see that?

Oh, he declared the mission was accomplished and not that the war was over. What the hell is the difference?

Talk about an ideological microscope.
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Old 11-07-2006, 12:38 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


That's what I thought.
It's amazing how much you troll me begging for my attention. But really I gotta tell you; in all sincerity; I don't really value your thoughts so I don't really care what you have to say and your opinion means absolutely zero to me because I've written you off as just not that intelligent.
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Old 11-07-2006, 12:40 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally posted by phanan


It is hilarious when one occupation is totally different from the other.

Or do you not see that?

Oh, he declared the mission was accomplished and not that the war was over. What the hell is the difference?

Talk about an ideological microscope.
Well for one thing, the mission was accomplished and the war wasn't over so he didn't declare the war over? And I don't know how you can claim I'm looking at it through an ideological microscope because I already said it was a dumb thing to do.

And as for the occupation, an occupation follows a war when the victorious country takes over, or occupies the losing country.

So yeah, the two occupations are similar in that both countries goverments capitulated and were ruled by the victorious army. It's not like when we were occupying France because they truely wanted us there and were actively helping us throw out an unwanted foreign army; and it wasn't like even the early occupation of german territories because when we were occupying the western and southern areas, the german army was in the field still and wasn't conquerred.
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Old 11-07-2006, 12:44 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snowlock


Hey guess what he also says it's UNKNOWABLE HOW LONG THAT CONFLICT WILL LAST.

Not to mention that you neglect to provide the full quote so we don't know what he's referring to as far as "conflict" goes. It could be the battle for Baghdad itself for all we know.

Next.
Yeah but he pretty much defines the "unknowable" range as within 6 days to 6 months.
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Old 11-07-2006, 12:45 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen
From Rumsfeld:


Emphasis mine. Notice how he doesn't say "the initial military conflict" but just the general conflict. And his longest estimate is in months, not years. Do you agree that the average American might take that to mean that the US would be out of Iraq in about 6 months, maybe a year tops, given that the information and (presumably) informed opinion is coming from the Secretary of Defense?
Your memory of the events, and statements made are the same as mine. In fact, I specifically recall various military people, Gen. Wesley Clark for one, stating numerous times that the action wasn't particularly well planned, and that there weren't enough military personnel on the ground to secure the nation after the initial invasion. Even that turned out to be a vast understatement.
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Old 11-07-2006, 12:46 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snowlock


Well for one thing, the mission was accomplished and the war wasn't over so he didn't declare the war over? And I don't know how you can claim I'm looking at it through an ideological microscope because I already said it was a dumb thing to do.
When the President of the United States declares that the mission was accomplished, you don't think he's trying to make it sound like the war is over?

That's what it sounds like to me. It was very misleading. At least, that's my interpretation of it.
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