Society's moral compass

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Angela Harlem

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Where should it come from? Most common answers are going to be church or state, but that's a load of bull when church and state both have a One Size Fits Some tag on their collar.
But lets expand this. If you do think either church or state is well able to dictate societal moral compasses, why do you think that, when you know it will leave some of society out in the cold?
 
I think a moral compass comes from each individual. The state has an obligation to make sure people's rights aren't quashed, but not to decide morals.

The church has no part in my life so I don't care what it does, as long as it doesn't seek to trod upon my rights.
 
Public morality should be dictated by secular humanism. Period.

Personal morality should be dictated by the religion or philosophy of your choice.

Melon
 
I'm in agreement with Melon.

Thanks for stating it so succinctly, Melon. I probably couldn't have (having a tendancy to run on for paragraphs and paragraphs...:wink: )
 
melon said:
Public morality should be dictated by secular humanism. Period.

Personal morality should be dictated by the religion or philosophy of your choice.

Melon

Public morality should be determined by the Pope.
Personal morality shuld be determined by the Pope.

Period.

Why?...because everything that is in Christianity must be interpreted by Christian leaders and then forced down our throats. This is because these Christian leaders know everything and their personal interpretation of the Bible is correct.




Lol just kidding of course. Please don't argue with me! Just a little sarcasm....... Melon's statement seems the best.
 
A moral compass must come from something beyond one's self.

As for "secular humanism" - how does that develop a moral compass? Might makes right?
 
nbcrusader said:
As for "secular humanism" - how does that develop a moral compass? Might makes right?

I'd be interested on what you think "secular humanism" is.

Secular humanism is an established philosophy that advocates approaching societal problems using reason and the scientific method over subjective theistic morality.

Determining public morality on the basis of whimsical and nonsensical religious pronouncements makes me beg the question--which religion do we pick from? For those who want prayer in public schools, I say let's crack out a round of "Hail Mary" prayers.

Melon
 
nbcrusader said:
A moral compass must come from something beyond one's self.
...

Why is that? I'd guess because of the view that humans are flawed and our faults mean we cannot rely on ourselves for moral rightness and all that.
So, if we go to the next stage, that leaves God and religion, right? But, if that is what we have, how is that right when it excludes and does not look after everyone? Religion as a basis for moral compass leads to an impasse. Every follower of every belief system thinks theirs is the right one. But they do not co-exist together and do not provide a moral framework which meets the needs of all.
Ask yourself honestly. Does yours, for example, have the right to trump all others? You wont believe someone else's has the right, or you wouldn't believe in what you do.
 
nbcrusader said:
A moral compass must come from something beyond one's self.

As for "secular humanism" - how does that develop a moral compass? Might makes right?
Logical axioms to derive morality. A great deal of which are inside religion. You do not need to be religious to know that killing another without cause is wrong, it is a violation of thier rights.
 
melon said:


I'd be interested on what you think "secular humanism" is.

Secular humanism is an established philosophy that advocates approaching societal problems using reason and the scientific method over subjective theistic morality.

Determining public morality on the basis of whimsical and nonsensical religious pronouncements makes me beg the question--which religion do we pick from? For those who want prayer in public schools, I say let's crack out a round of "Hail Mary" prayers.

Melon

OK, Melon, say you were put in charge of public policy. Let's assume killing (without just cause, which I'll let you define) and stealing are forbidden. What else is forbidden in your society and what is the logical and scientific basis behind it? (You may never be given this much power again)
 
BonosSaint said:
OK, Melon, say you were put in charge of public policy. Let's assume killing (without just cause, which I'll let you define) and stealing are forbidden. What else is forbidden in your society and what is the logical and scientific basis behind it? (You may never be given this much power again)

You're essentially asking me to sum up 230 years of law in one post. Unfortunately, not even a political campaign can be summed up in one post.

Melon
 
Morality is personal. Each person has to decide what their morality is going to be. I have my moral views, and they are very different from those of my own siblings. No one can force their moral views on anyone else.
 
melon said:


I'd be interested on what you think "secular humanism" is.

Secular humanism is an established philosophy that advocates approaching societal problems using reason and the scientific method over subjective theistic morality.


So who gets to decide what is moral and what isn't ?
 
Irvine511 said:
all those secular humans do. via the apparatus of laws and government.

So where does religion come into all this? Or does it?
 
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Irvine511 said:



all those secular humans do. via the apparatus of laws and government.

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The humans who can't organize fixing a pothole ?????

Funniest thing I'll see all year !
 
cardosino said:


ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The humans who can't organize fixing a pothole ?????

Funniest thing I'll see all year !



yes, God does a great job fixing potholes.

:huh:

people fight wars, write laws, teach children, build skyscrapers and knock them down. what we consider to be moral is created through a constant negotiation at the intersection of culture and law.
 
Irvine511 said:




yes, God does a great job fixing potholes.

:huh:


No, that's why we have construction companies and elected public officials. Each has a strength. I've yet to figure out what the strenth of the elected public official is, certainly I don't think they're up to deciding the nation's moral compass, and obviously you must feel the same way given the amount of anti-gay-rights legislature these people you'd entrust our moral compass are tryign to pass.


Irvine511 said:

people fight wars, write laws, teach children, build skyscrapers and knock them down. what we consider to be moral is created through a constant negotiation at the intersection of culture and law.

That culture being traditionally based upon God's word.
 
cardosino said:


No, that's why we have construction companies and elected public officials. Each has a strength. I've yet to figure out what the strenth of the elected public official is, certainly I don't think they're up to deciding the nation's moral compass, and obviously you must feel the same way given the amount of anti-gay-rights legislature these people you'd entrust our moral compass are tryign to pass.




That culture being traditionally based upon God's word.



perhaps the church should simply appoint those they deem most holy to serve as public officials instead of bothering with elections and such? it sounds like you'd enjoy a theocracy (and you've also got to explain that pot hole comment -- just what on earth were you talking about?) you're more than welcome to it, just not in my country.
 
cardosino said:
That culture being traditionally based upon God's word.

Which was based on Zoroastrianism / Mithraism that supplanted tribal Judaism, which was based off of the worship of a Sumerian sun god. Zoroastrianism, itself, was a splinter of early Vedic Hinduism.

So now which religion should we choose again?

Melon
 
cardosino said:
So who gets to decide what is moral and what isn't?

Easy. Humanity. Who has been deciding what's moral and what isn't all along? Humanity. Unless you think King Cyrus of Persia is the greatest moral genius of all time, considering we owe more to him for our Old Testament than we do to God.

(How I wish the canon of the Sadducees still existed!)

Melon
 
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financeguy said:
So where does religion come into all this? Or does it?

Religion doesn't. That's the point. Religion should only figure into one's personal life and personal morality, whereas the larger, common morality for a pluralistic society should be determined by secular humanism.

Not that that ends debate completely. I think that both "pro" and "con" arguments could be created from a secular humanist standpoint in regards to abortion.

Melon
 
Irvine511 said:




perhaps the church should simply appoint those they deem most holy to serve as public officials instead of bothering with elections and such? it sounds like you'd enjoy a theocracy (and you've also got to explain that pot hole comment -- just what on earth were you talking about?)

You're smart, I'll knwo you'll get it !

Irvine511 said:


you're more than welcome to it, just not in my country.

It's not what I advocated. Nice straw-man though. Straw-men are a specialty of this forum, on all sides.
 
cardosino said:


You're smart, I'll knwo you'll get it !



It's not what I advocated. Nice straw-man though. Straw-men are a specialty of this forum, on all sides.



so is bait-and-switch.
 
melon said:


Easy. Humanity. Who has been deciding what's moral and what isn't all along? Humanity.


Yes, traditionally based on God's word

" Statesmen by dear Sir, may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand...The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People…they will not obtain a lasting Liberty. – John Adams, 1776"
 
cardosino said:



Yes, traditionally based on God's word

" Statesmen by dear Sir, may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand...The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People…they will not obtain a lasting Liberty. – John Adams, 1776"

Without religion, I believe that learning does real mischief to the morals and principles of mankind.
– Benjamin Rush, 1783

I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you, and the State over which you preside, in his holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the Citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to Government, to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow Citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the Field, and finally, that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all, to do Justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that Charity, humility and pacific temper of mind, which were the Characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation. – George Washington, farewell letter to the Army, 1783

It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. – James Madison, ‘father of the Constitution,´ 1785

And have we now forgotten that powerful Friend? Or do we imagine we no longer need its assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time; and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this Truth, that God governs in the Affairs of Men. And if a Sparrow cannot fall to the Ground without his Notice, is it probable that an Empire can rise without his Aid?
– Benjamin Franklin, Motion for Prayers in the Constitutional Convention, 1787

A State, I cheerfully admit, is the noblest work of Man: But Man, himself, free and honest, is…the noblest work of G-d.... – James Wilson, 1793

Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation deserts the oaths...?
– George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796

Of all the dispositions and habits which least to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism who should labor to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness - these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. – Washington´s Farewell Address, 1796

We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. – John Adams, 1798

The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.
– Benjamin Rush, 1806

Religion and virtue are the only foundations, not of republicanism and of all free government, but of social felicity under all government and in all the combinations of human society. – John Adams, 1811

And finally, this last quote, from the man who authored the phrase ‘separation of church and state,´ but in a context far different from that which ‘liberals´ use to justify their assault on G-d—

And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever. – Thomas Jefferson, 1781
 
cardosino said:
"Statesmen by dear Sir, may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand...The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People…they will not obtain a lasting Liberty. – John Adams, 1776"

Since we're quoting John Adams:

"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. ... The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."

-- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams (the original language is by Joel Barlow, U.S. Consul)


"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."

-- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88), from Adrienne Koch, ed., The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society (1965) p. 258, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

Melon
 
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Quoting our Founding Fathers on religion is laughable:

"The founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected [Washington; Adams; Jefferson; Madison; Monroe; Adams; Jackson] not a one had professed a belief in Christianity. ... Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."

-- The Reverend Doctor Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in a sermon preached in October, 1831

Melon
 
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melon said:
Quoting our Founding Fathers on religion is laughable:

But you did it anyway. I guess it's ok to do so if it buttresses an opinion or theory you happen to support ?

I'd still like to know then which humans exactly you'd want to be "setting our moral compass"
 
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