Society's moral compass - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-14-2005, 07:41 AM   #16
War Child
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: OC
Posts: 711
Local Time: 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



all those secular humans do. via the apparatus of laws and government.
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The humans who can't organize fixing a pothole ?????

Funniest thing I'll see all year !
__________________

__________________
cardosino is offline  
Old 06-14-2005, 09:32 AM   #17
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,495
Local Time: 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino


ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The humans who can't organize fixing a pothole ?????

Funniest thing I'll see all year !


yes, God does a great job fixing potholes.



people fight wars, write laws, teach children, build skyscrapers and knock them down. what we consider to be moral is created through a constant negotiation at the intersection of culture and law.
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 06-14-2005, 09:42 AM   #18
War Child
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: OC
Posts: 711
Local Time: 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




yes, God does a great job fixing potholes.



No, that's why we have construction companies and elected public officials. Each has a strength. I've yet to figure out what the strenth of the elected public official is, certainly I don't think they're up to deciding the nation's moral compass, and obviously you must feel the same way given the amount of anti-gay-rights legislature these people you'd entrust our moral compass are tryign to pass.


Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

people fight wars, write laws, teach children, build skyscrapers and knock them down. what we consider to be moral is created through a constant negotiation at the intersection of culture and law.
That culture being traditionally based upon God's word.
__________________
cardosino is offline  
Old 06-14-2005, 09:45 AM   #19
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,495
Local Time: 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino


No, that's why we have construction companies and elected public officials. Each has a strength. I've yet to figure out what the strenth of the elected public official is, certainly I don't think they're up to deciding the nation's moral compass, and obviously you must feel the same way given the amount of anti-gay-rights legislature these people you'd entrust our moral compass are tryign to pass.




That culture being traditionally based upon God's word.


perhaps the church should simply appoint those they deem most holy to serve as public officials instead of bothering with elections and such? it sounds like you'd enjoy a theocracy (and you've also got to explain that pot hole comment -- just what on earth were you talking about?) you're more than welcome to it, just not in my country.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 06-14-2005, 09:57 AM   #20
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino
That culture being traditionally based upon God's word.
Which was based on Zoroastrianism / Mithraism that supplanted tribal Judaism, which was based off of the worship of a Sumerian sun god. Zoroastrianism, itself, was a splinter of early Vedic Hinduism.

So now which religion should we choose again?

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 06-14-2005, 09:59 AM   #21
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino
So who gets to decide what is moral and what isn't?
Easy. Humanity. Who has been deciding what's moral and what isn't all along? Humanity. Unless you think King Cyrus of Persia is the greatest moral genius of all time, considering we owe more to him for our Old Testament than we do to God.

(How I wish the canon of the Sadducees still existed!)

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 06-14-2005, 10:02 AM   #22
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
So where does religion come into all this? Or does it?
Religion doesn't. That's the point. Religion should only figure into one's personal life and personal morality, whereas the larger, common morality for a pluralistic society should be determined by secular humanism.

Not that that ends debate completely. I think that both "pro" and "con" arguments could be created from a secular humanist standpoint in regards to abortion.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 06-14-2005, 10:19 AM   #23
War Child
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: OC
Posts: 711
Local Time: 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




perhaps the church should simply appoint those they deem most holy to serve as public officials instead of bothering with elections and such? it sounds like you'd enjoy a theocracy (and you've also got to explain that pot hole comment -- just what on earth were you talking about?)
You're smart, I'll knwo you'll get it !

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


you're more than welcome to it, just not in my country.
It's not what I advocated. Nice straw-man though. Straw-men are a specialty of this forum, on all sides.
__________________
cardosino is offline  
Old 06-14-2005, 10:24 AM   #24
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,495
Local Time: 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino


You're smart, I'll knwo you'll get it !



It's not what I advocated. Nice straw-man though. Straw-men are a specialty of this forum, on all sides.


so is bait-and-switch.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 06-14-2005, 10:25 AM   #25
War Child
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: OC
Posts: 711
Local Time: 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Easy. Humanity. Who has been deciding what's moral and what isn't all along? Humanity.

Yes, traditionally based on God's word

" Statesmen by dear Sir, may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand...The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People…they will not obtain a lasting Liberty. – John Adams, 1776"
__________________
cardosino is offline  
Old 06-14-2005, 10:26 AM   #26
War Child
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: OC
Posts: 711
Local Time: 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




so is bait-and-switch.
Told you so !
__________________
cardosino is offline  
Old 06-14-2005, 10:27 AM   #27
War Child
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: OC
Posts: 711
Local Time: 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino



Yes, traditionally based on God's word

" Statesmen by dear Sir, may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand...The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People…they will not obtain a lasting Liberty. – John Adams, 1776"
Without religion, I believe that learning does real mischief to the morals and principles of mankind.
– Benjamin Rush, 1783

I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you, and the State over which you preside, in his holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the Citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to Government, to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow Citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the Field, and finally, that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all, to do Justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that Charity, humility and pacific temper of mind, which were the Characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation. – George Washington, farewell letter to the Army, 1783

It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. – James Madison, ‘father of the Constitution,´ 1785

And have we now forgotten that powerful Friend? Or do we imagine we no longer need its assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time; and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this Truth, that God governs in the Affairs of Men. And if a Sparrow cannot fall to the Ground without his Notice, is it probable that an Empire can rise without his Aid?
– Benjamin Franklin, Motion for Prayers in the Constitutional Convention, 1787

A State, I cheerfully admit, is the noblest work of Man: But Man, himself, free and honest, is…the noblest work of G-d.... – James Wilson, 1793

Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation deserts the oaths...?
– George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796

Of all the dispositions and habits which least to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism who should labor to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness - these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. – Washington´s Farewell Address, 1796

We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. – John Adams, 1798

The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.
– Benjamin Rush, 1806

Religion and virtue are the only foundations, not of republicanism and of all free government, but of social felicity under all government and in all the combinations of human society. – John Adams, 1811

And finally, this last quote, from the man who authored the phrase ‘separation of church and state,´ but in a context far different from that which ‘liberals´ use to justify their assault on G-d—

And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever. – Thomas Jefferson, 1781
__________________
cardosino is offline  
Old 06-14-2005, 10:30 AM   #28
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino
"Statesmen by dear Sir, may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand...The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People…they will not obtain a lasting Liberty. – John Adams, 1776"
Since we're quoting John Adams:

"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. ... The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."

-- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams (the original language is by Joel Barlow, U.S. Consul)


"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."

-- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88), from Adrienne Koch, ed., The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society (1965) p. 258, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 06-14-2005, 10:31 AM   #29
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 11:18 AM
Quoting our Founding Fathers on religion is laughable:

"The founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected [Washington; Adams; Jefferson; Madison; Monroe; Adams; Jackson] not a one had professed a belief in Christianity. ... Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."

-- The Reverend Doctor Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in a sermon preached in October, 1831

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 06-14-2005, 10:41 AM   #30
War Child
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: OC
Posts: 711
Local Time: 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Quoting our Founding Fathers on religion is laughable:
But you did it anyway. I guess it's ok to do so if it buttresses an opinion or theory you happen to support ?

I'd still like to know then which humans exactly you'd want to be "setting our moral compass"
__________________

__________________
cardosino is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com