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Old 05-03-2008, 05:00 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
I think that before we use emotive phrases like Holocaust denial we should take a step back and look at the actual figures.

Per the first article posted:-



Now assuming that say 5% of any given population is gay, using the lower of the two estimates in the article ('several thousand') and applying it to the overall figure of 6 million we find that gays were disproportionately LESS persecuted in the Holocaust than straights. Even using the HIGHER estimate of a quarter million,
the number of gays persecuted is only around the same as one would expect to find in a given population of 6 million.

To be bluntly honest, until I see better evidence, I call bullshit on this.
What part of being forced to wear a pink triangle don't you understand? They weren't gay people who just happened to be among those persecuted. The Nazis went after them precisely because they were gay.
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Old 05-03-2008, 05:22 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
I think that before we use emotive phrases like Holocaust denial we should take a step back and look at the actual figures.

Per the first article posted:-



Now assuming that say 5% of any given population is gay, using the lower of the two estimates in the article ('several thousand') and applying it to the overall figure of 6 million we find that gays were disproportionately LESS persecuted in the Holocaust than straights. Even using the HIGHER estimate of a quarter million,
the number of gays persecuted is only around the same as one would expect to find in a given population of 6 million.

To be bluntly honest, until I see better evidence, I call bullshit on this.
Sounds like proof the title of this thread is too true.
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Old 05-03-2008, 05:51 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
No straight was persecuted for being straight

No-one has made that claim.


Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
but at least several thousand people

Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
from 100,000 to 800,000
Which is it then?
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Old 05-03-2008, 05:52 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


Sounds like proof the title of this thread is too true.
Sounds like you're just throwing slurs around (what's new?)
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Old 05-03-2008, 05:56 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


Sounds like you're just throwing slurs around (what's new?)
But I thought from now on you were just "simply disagreeing" with me?

And what "slur" did I throw around?
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Old 05-03-2008, 06:03 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy



No-one has made that claim.


Quote:
we find that gays were disproportionately LESS persecuted in the Holocaust than straights.
What is that meant to say, then?


Quote:

Which is it then? [/B]
The second figure is by how much the estimates are ranging as to how many Sinti & Roma have been killed by the Nazis. By your strange maths that's not really that important, as it is just a tiny percentage of how many Jews have been killed, and additionally the population of Sinti & Roma in Europe wasn't that big.

Apparently I'm not the only one who then didn't understand correctly what you meant with your post. Maybe you could explain it to me?
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Old 05-03-2008, 06:03 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha
But I thought from now on you were just "simply disagreeing" with me?
Bait and switch....the usual tactic of the far left on FYM. I'm not sure whether you learned it from BonoVoxSupastar, or the other way around.

Quote:
Originally posted by martha
And what "slur" did I throw around?
Are you now denying that you just called me a holocaust denier?
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Old 05-03-2008, 06:08 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
Apparently I'm not the only one who then didn't understand correctly what you meant with your post. Maybe you could explain it to me?
It isn't that difficult. There's a big difference between several thousand and a quarter million (and even if the latter figure is the correct one, it doesn't seem dramatically different from the number we'd statisically expect to be gay of a given population.)

All I'm looking for is some evidence of this gay Holocaust. If you can provide it, go ahead.
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Old 05-03-2008, 06:10 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
Are you now denying that you just called me a holocaust denier?
You seem to be agreeing with the folks melon quoted.

Or, instead of getting your boxers wadded up about what I posted (which seems to be easier and more fun that actually answering questions), you could answer some of the questions asked of you, which may clarify just what the hell you meant.
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Old 05-03-2008, 06:10 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy

All I'm looking for is some evidence of this gay Holocaust. If you can provide it, go ahead.
But I thought you weren't denying any Holocaust?
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Old 05-03-2008, 06:16 PM   #26
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Check out the fifth column, and then tell me that the Nazis didn't have it in for homosexuals.
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Old 05-03-2008, 06:18 PM   #27
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What a pity that many gays managed it to hide their orientation, flee the country or going underground.
The Nazis were primarily focussing on incarcerating gays, i.e. men, while they often "ignored" lesbians. That might be one reason why the statistic doesn't help here. Another reason: The European society wasn't that open to gay people anyways, so they haven't been that open about their orientation anyways, which might have helped to stay out of the focus of the Nazis.
If really five percent of any given society would be gay would be another question.
Also, one might want to look up how many homosexuals survived the concentration camps.

But all that doesn't change the fact: In the Nazi's world view gay people were another form of "imperfect life" and they were persecuted. They had to wear the pink triangle and many of them ended up in concentration camps. Some survived, others not, based upon whether they were fit enough to work or not.

Of course there is a big difference between several thousands and a quarter million, just as there is a big difference between 100,000 and 800,000 Sinti & Roma. But no one is seriously questioning whether a concerted harrassment and elimination of that group has happened. And no one is seriously questioning whether the Nazis were out to eliminate gays.
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Old 05-03-2008, 06:22 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
Of course there is a big difference between several thousands and a quarter million, just as there is a big difference between 100,000 and 800,000 Sinti & Roma. But no one is seriously questioning whether a concerted harrassment and elimination of that group has happened. And no one is seriously questioning whether the Nazis were out to eliminate gays.

100,000 to 800,000 was a very substantial proportion of Europe's Sinti and Roma. 6 million was a huge proportion of European Jewry at the time. Several thousand was not a huge proportion of the entire European homosexual population at the time.
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Old 05-03-2008, 06:25 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
If really five percent of any given society would be gay would be another question.
It would indeed, yes. Some surveys (e.g., McKinsey) put it at considerably higher. Which makes my question more, not less pertinent.
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Old 05-03-2008, 06:26 PM   #30
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It doesn't negate one simple fact: If you were known to be gay back then, you ended up in a concentratin camp being singled out with a pink triangle.
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