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Old 02-07-2003, 10:03 PM   #1
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So you say you want "Nation Building"?

To the pro war fraction:

We all know that just winning the war and leaving the country will only help the extremistic islamists (who are killed and terrorized by Saddam at the moment).
I'm sure we won't do the same to them so we must convince them.

If you attack Iraq and win the war..
..are you prepared for what comes next?

- What's your concept for Iraq?
Culture there is verry different, a 1:1 copy of the US system won't work.

- Remember that this concept has to convince people with a anti-western and anti-american atitude.

- Did you translate books and do you have enough people who can talk that language?

- who should replace the conservative islamics who act as judges now? UN troops? if you do the war without the UN you will have to do the nation building yourself too.

- Remember you call the Iran also "evil". So you have to stabilize that country quick to start the next war .

Klaus

p.s. not that important but interesting (just to people who are pro bush: Do you think the Saddam should be charged for what he has done at the ICC?
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Old 02-08-2003, 12:52 AM   #2
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To be honest, I think this post is painted on a stereotype of the Middle East. Saddam, despite the fact of being an autocrat, does not have a record of supporting conservative Islam. He is more of a secular dictator, and there are many nations that have worse records on women's rights and religious tolerance. Certainly I'm not trying to defend him, per se, because he has created a culture of fear, but, at least in those issues I've mentioned, he hasn't been known as problematic.

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Old 02-08-2003, 01:34 PM   #3
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Melon:

I agree completely with your statement. I'm sorry if my previous post could lead to that view.
I guess that the radical islamic wing in Iraq will get more influense because of a war - because their biggest enemy in that country will be weakened. (That just shows that the enemy of our enemy isn't necc. our friend)

And after Saddam lost the war the iraqi people need judges with a morale authority, and that's the point were Islamistic radicals have their chance to increase their influense.

But anyway, if you think my scenario is wrong, write down your own view - i'm just curious how the pro-war fraction hopes to do the change to democracy in Iraq.

Klaus
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Old 02-10-2003, 02:58 PM   #4
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Nebuchadnezzar

Quote:
Originally posted by melon
To be honest, I think this post is painted on a stereotype of the Middle East. Saddam, despite the fact of being an autocrat, does not have a record of supporting conservative Islam. He is more of a secular dictator, and there are many nations that have worse records on women's rights and religious tolerance. Certainly I'm not trying to defend him, per se, because he has created a culture of fear, but, at least in those issues I've mentioned, he hasn't been known as problematic.

Melon
Some additional information regarding Saddam's view of himself as a leader:

Saddam, and his backers see him as a sort of modern-day Nebuchadnezzar. Some intelligence suggests he actually *believes* he is the reincarnation of the famous biblical figure. His actions only back this up. Although blacked out in much of western media, the fact remains that Saddam is actively engaged in serious and almost frantic archeological studies of his land. This is not to be understated. Saddam sits on top of not only the world's 2nd largest oil supply, but arguably something else much richer: the archeological seat and cradle of modern civilization itself. Saddam has actively rebuilt part of Nebuchadnezzar's 600-room palace. He celebrated the city of babylon's renewal with an elaborate ceremony, attended by thousands of people, and paid tribute to Ishtar, the mother goddess of babylon. He has rebuilt and is in the process of excavating numerous temples, villages, and other babylonian sites. His emmisaries have sought permission from museums across the world to study and copy sumerian and babylonian artifacts. Archeological sites in Iraq are so important, that they are impossible to access without detailed security. They are in fact, officially declared as sites of "National Security."

Why is this all so important to Saddam? Is he simply an archeological "White Knight"? Who else is this important to? Do biblical philosophies influence political motivations? We recently heard from the Bush administration that saddam is hiding his WMD under tarps buried in the Iraqi sand. The administration has also openly stated that it reserves the right to use low-yield tactical "bunker buster" nuclear warheads. Next comes statements that Saddam has hid WMD in his rebuilt Palace. I have no idea on the status of weapons inspection here, so my guess is as good as yours.

Revelation 18:21-23 tells of the future destruction of babylon. Prophecies can be self-fulfilled, especially in the minds of men. Just another angle to reflect upon, when considering this war on Iraq. Although religious considerations may not play a full role in this war, it would be naive to suggest there may be no influence at all - *especially* considering Israel's stance on the issue.
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Old 02-10-2003, 05:51 PM   #5
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Well i guess we read enough about Saddam in all the other threads i was just curious if anybody of the pro war fraction has an idea how nationbuilding after a war could work, since bombing till noone survives is no option.

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Old 02-10-2003, 06:03 PM   #6
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Religious considerations, perhaps, but it appears that these considerations have more to do with how Saddam perceives himself, rather than matters of national policy. Again, I'm not defending him, but, rather, setting the record straight.

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Old 02-10-2003, 08:51 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
Well i guess we read enough about Saddam in all the other threads i was just curious if anybody of the pro war fraction has an idea how nationbuilding after a war could work, since bombing till noone survives is no option.

Klaus
Well, I was kind of hoping the UN would jump in and support us, because I think if we are left with Britain to fix this thing, well....

enough said
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Old 02-11-2003, 05:39 AM   #8
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Dreadsox:

nice idea US and GB does the bombing and the UN should care about cleaning up ;-)

All i was hoping for was that if somebody has detailed plans how to attack the country that he should make up his mind what hapens after that - and a little more detailed than "UN / Democracy / Nation Building". If the US want others to do that job they should listen if they tell you war is not the way)
Imho military force just increases the problem (look at Israel/Palestina).

Klaus

p.s. anyway - still waiting for the pro-war fraction
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Old 02-12-2003, 06:31 AM   #9
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http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0210/p07s02-wome.html

An interesting article in this area.
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Old 02-12-2003, 07:09 AM   #10
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Dreadsox:
interesting indeed
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