So that´s America´s famous free speech, haha

[hiphop]

White House Sidewalk Protest Leads to Arrest of About 370

By Petula Dvorak
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, September 27, 2005; Page B01

About 370 antiwar demonstrators were arrested yesterday after planting themselves on the sidewalk in front of the White House, a protest that stretched out for nearly five hours as police removed them in stages to avoid a backlog at a processing center.

The demonstrators, who had stayed in Washington after Saturday's antiwar rally and march past the White House, were carted away in Metro buses and police vans. Fingerprinting and booking continued late into the evening at a U.S. Park Police operations facility in Anacostia.

Those arrested were charged with demonstrating without a permit, a misdemeanor that carries a $50 fine and -- like a traffic ticket -- can be paid by mail or challenged later in court, said Sgt. Scott Fear, a Park Police spokesman.

In an action that they had planned several weeks ago and discussed with police, the demonstrators went to the White House gate on Pennsylvania Avenue NW about 12:30 p.m. and tried to deliver to President Bush the names of all the soldiers and civilians killed in Iraq. When the president did not meet with them, they sat down for their protest.

With bullhorns and hoarse voices, they yelled at the executive mansion, asking whether the president was peeking from behind a curtain or hearing them at all.

"You are a coward! You didn't meet us in Crawford; come meet us now," said Beatriz Saldivar of Fort Worth, whose nephew, Army Sgt. Daniel Torres, was killed in action nearly eight months ago during his second tour in Iraq. In August, Saldivar had joined antiwar activist Cindy Sheehan during a protest outside the president's Texas ranch, when Sheehan had asked to talk with Bush about the death of her son, Casey Sheehan, in Iraq.

Cindy Sheehan, who was among the demonstrators yesterday, was the first to be taken into police custody. She smiled at the crowd when police lifted her from the sidewalk and escorted her to a van.

At his daily news briefing yesterday, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Bush is "very much aware" of the past few days of protests and "recognizes that there are differences of opinion" on the Iraq war.

"It's the right of the American people to peacefully express their views. And that's what you're seeing here in Washington, D.C.," McClellan said. "They're well-intentioned, but the president strongly believes that withdrawing . . . would make us less safe and make the world more dangerous."

The group arrested yesterday was led by a coalition of religious leaders. They were joined by anarchists, military families, Iraq war veterans and political activists of various stripes.






Who the fuck does Scotty believe to be - "It's the right of the American people to peacefully express their views. And that's what you're seeing here in Washington, D.C." - If this is their right, why the arrests?

"They're well-intentioned, but the president strongly believes that withdrawing . . . would make us less safe and make the world more dangerous." I see, that´s why 370 people are arrested

"Those arrested were charged with demonstrating without a permit, a misdemeanor that carries a $50 fine" - "In an action that they had planned several weeks ago and discussed with police"- if they discussed it several weeks w police, how can they be arrested for demonstrating without permission? Or didn´t they get any bc the police refused? If thats the case, why did it refuse to give permit - on higher command?



So this is what free speech in America is like!

Thanks George W., you have opened my eyes.

Duh. What an absolutely ugly country America has become. I would be afraid to live there

 

[Irvine511]

oh come on.

i was at that protest and support many of their goals, i think Iraq was a bad idea, and i loath the Bushies.

but all demonstrations have rules so they do not become riots. and these people were *intentionally* breaking the rules in an act of Civil Disobedience because it will make headlines and draw attention to the cause. just like MLK *knew* that his protestors would be attacked with firehoses and dogs -- it's such imagery that can move hearts in minds.

HipHop -- you're very smart. i agree that free speech is under attack. i agree that there is a corporate stranglehold on the media, as well as the bullshit charge of "liberal!" but, please, don't be a silly leftist who is reflexively anti-American at anything and everything.

 

[nbcrusader]

The only thing that bothers me about these demonstrations is the intentional drain on police resources. I'm sure they could be doing better things than carrying Cindy Sheehan out as part of her photo op.

 

[hiphop]

I´m not Irvine.

I just wonder A LOT because while the KKK and some NeoNazis are allowed to walk around freely, and they are always defended (!!! how sweet of all you "free" people, haha) with that argument; whereas those who critisize the administations policies, are not allowed.

Leave the whole media proliferation argument out of this. Those arrests make the front page of our most popular (shitty) Austrian newspaper, 1.3 millions of people read it, man, thats all there is to say to it. Sure they make the meida, and it´s their right to do so.

As to America:

I just expressed my sentiments. would, really, seriously, be afraid to live in the U.S.A. It is not an attractive country, that´s all there is to say about it, let´s do us a favor and not go into the details about crime rates, no insurance, student loans, bad education system, total failure of authorities on all levels when you need them, and about half of the people being overweight and dying of heart attack in a couple of years eating the same old McDonalds shit.

Your country should be your partner, not your enemy. Would you like to have a partner that
.) has a John Wayne approach when you quarrel
.) doesn´t give a shit about you when you´re ill, your fucking problem
.) doesn´t want you to be educated
.) is unable to deal with it when an installation of the house breaks and its covered in water, and just waits a few days instead of calling the installation service
.) who is fat and might die of cancer in a couple of years, but forbids smokin

 

[hiphop]

The only thing that bothers me about these demonstrations is the intentional drain on police resources. I'm sure they could be doing better things than carrying Cindy Sheehan out as part of her photo op.

That´s surprising. You always defended free speech on all levels, and here you got nothing to say. Interesting... very typical though

 

[hiphop]

as a little post scriptum:

"would make us less safe and make the world more dangerous"

Nice one.. means:
America is safe.
The world (the whole rest of the world, folks, yeah!) is dangerous.

Muahahahahaha

those guys in the White House are too funny

 

[nbcrusader]

very typical though

Save your petty shots for another forum.

I'll defend Cindy Sheehan's right to free speech. My only reservation was the externalities generated by her choice to break the law.

 

[Irvine511]

I´m not Irvine.

I just wonder A LOT because while the KKK and some NeoNazis are allowed to walk around freely, and they are always defended (!!! how sweet of all you "free" people, haha) with that argument; whereas those who critisize the administations policies, are not allowed.

Leave the whole media proliferation argument out of this. Those arrests make the front page of our most popular (shitty) Austrian newspaper, 1.3 millions of people read it, man, thats all there is to say to it. Sure they make the meida, and it´s their right to do so.

As to America:

I just expressed my sentiments. would, really, seriously, be afraid to live in the U.S.A. It is not an attractive country, that´s all there is to say about it, let´s do us a favor and not go into the details about crime rates, no insurance, student loans, bad education system, total failure of authorities on all levels when you need them, and about half of the people being overweight and dying of heart attack in a couple of years eating the same old McDonalds shit.

Your country should be your partner, not your enemy. Would you like to have a partner that
.) has a John Wayne approach when you quarrel
.) doesn´t give a shit about you when you´re ill, your fucking problem
.) doesn´t want you to be educated
.) is unable to deal with it when an installation of the house breaks and its covered in water, and just waits a few days instead of calling the installation service
.) who is fat and might die of cancer in a couple of years, but forbids smokin

it's simply stupid to paint 300m people living in the most diverse and successful society in history with a single brush.

i am the first to admit that there are myriad problems in the US, but i've spent way more than enough time in Europe to know it's not some fantasy land, and please don't forget that virtually ALL of the social benefits you take for granted are a direct result of the fact that the US has taken care of virtually all of your military needs since the end of WW2.

fewer things irritate me more than your ultra-simplistic, euro-centric, essentially ignorant lables. the European media feeds into these distortions, and unthinking leftists (shall we call them Stalin apologists?) eat them up -- please, go through and replace the word "american" with the words "jew" "black" "woman" or "gay" and see how it reads to you.

 

[Irvine511]

I'll defend Cindy Sheehan's right to free speech. My only reservation was the externalities generated by her choice to break the law.

were MLK's demonstrations a waste of police resources?

 

[nbcrusader]

I wouldn't even begin to compare the two.

 

[Irvine511]

I wouldn't even begin to compare the two.

why not?

does someone and their movement have to rise up to an arbitrary standard in order to become an acceptable use of police resources?

do you think the majority of the country in 1960 held MLK in the same esteem that we do today? or was he just a troublemaker?

 

[hiphop]

Save your petty shots for another forum.

lol

you´re gettin´annoyed, sweetie?

 

[hiphop]

it's simply stupid to paint 300m people living in the most diverse and successful society in history with a single brush.

i am the first to admit that there are myriad problems in the US, but i've spent way more than enough time in Europe to know it's not some fantasy land, and please don't forget that virtually ALL of the social benefits you take for granted are a direct result of the fact that the US has taken care of virtually all of your military needs since the end of WW2.

fewer things irritate me more than your ultra-simplistic, euro-centric, essentially ignorant lables. the European media feeds into these distortions, and unthinking leftists (shall we call them Stalin apologists?) eat them up -- please, go through and replace the word "american" with the words "jew" "black" "woman" or "gay" and see how it reads to you.

Irvine, as much as I respect your opinions, you´re just plain on the wrong track here.

"it's simply stupid to paint 300m people"
you should be intelligent enough to read my words in the context. Show me a single line where I talk 300m people. im talking about the political system and its repercussions and the way of life that emerges from that.

"in the most diverse and successful society in history"
how superficial. where do you get this idea that America is the most diverse and successful society?

"Europe to know it's not some fantasy land"
very true, we got löts of shits goin on here, but i prefer it a thousand times to living in the U.S.

"please don't forget that virtually ALL of the social benefits you take for granted are a direct result of the fact that the US has taken care of virtually all of your military needs since the end of WW2"

Wrong. The U.S. helped with the Marshall plan, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with our social benefits. You´re high trippin, man. Our social system (or what is left of it) works because of taxes we pay, not becaue of the NATO. Apart from that, my country never was in the NATO. Same for Switzerland. And still we had all those social benefits. Weird, huh?

also don´t forget that the successes, which (I agree) the U.S. did have, are built mainly on two things:
1) you got a whole continent for free, only thing your forefathers had to do was to kill a few Indians
2) you had lots of free working power in the form of slaves

"please, go through and replace the word "american" with the words "jew" "black" "woman" or "gay" and see how it reads to you"

If you tell me where to replace it please?
I have not used the terminus "AMERICANS" but the terminus "AMERICA". There is a difference. Replace America with any other country in the world where you see problems.

"fewer things irritate me more than your ultra-simplistic, euro-centric, essentially ignorant lables" thats a compliment, is it?

 

[hiphop]

why not?

does someone and their movement have to rise up to an arbitrary standard in order to become an acceptable use of police resources?

do you think the majority of the country in 1960 held MLK in the same esteem that we do today? or was he just a troublemaker?

You´re right on this one.

MLKs movement wasn´t respected until long afterwards. most of the American white upper class disrespected the cause.

It is sooooo easy to give credit to things that have happened a long time ago and are glorified, and to close your eyes in the present time.

 

[Irvine511]

"it's simply stupid to paint 300m people"
you should be intelligent enough to read my words in the context. Show me a single line where I talk 300m people. im talking about the political system and its repercussions and the way of life that emerges from that.

firstly, in a democracy, the political system arises from the people. you'll admit that the political system is elastic, and its one guarantee is that it will look different in 10 years. you also toss out the usual cliches -- hamburgers -- and attach them to nothing.

"in the most diverse and successful society in history"
how superficial. where do you get this idea that America is the most diverse and successful society?

diverse -- look at the ethnic make up of the US. we are only 75% caucasian, and that's falling fast. we have more people trying to immigrate into the US than all the rest of the countries of the world combined. as for success -- my standard, and you can obviously debate this, is the fact that we've amassed a 10 trillion dollar economy, have more Nobel Prize winners at the University of Chicago alone than in all of the UK, have easily the world's best university system, have put men on the moon, and pretty much dominate every field of human achievement from the Olympics to the Oscars.

now, this is not to say its an objectively *good* thing -- it is to say, though, by which standards of "success" can be measured the US is far and away the most successful country on earth.

soon it will be China. but for now, it's the US.

"Europe to know it's not some fantasy land"
very true, we got löts of shits goin on here, but i prefer it a thousand times to living in the U.S.

fair enough. that's an opinon. i've lived in both and love both and hate both -- at the end of the day, i ultimately feel much more empowered to do what i want with my life in the US.

"please don't forget that virtually ALL of the social benefits you take for granted are a direct result of the fact that the US has taken care of virtually all of your military needs since the end of WW2"

Wrong. The U.S. helped with the Marshall plan, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with our social benefits. You´re high trippin, man. Our social system (or what is left of it) works because of taxes we pay, not becaue of the NATO. Apart from that, my country never was in the NATO. Same for Switzerland. And still we had all those social benefits. Weird, huh?

well, tossing aside the Marshall Plan as just one thing is kind of like saying that the printing press was just another invention. but, anyway, what, pray tell, do you think stopped Soviet tanks from rolling into West Berlin? the countries of Europe, the UK aside, simply have not had a need to fund a military in a manner that would be adequate to defend their borders from a Soviet invasion. thus, because your safety is insured by the US, you are free to spend your much higher taxes on social benefits.

also don´t forget that the successes, which (I agree) the U.S. did have, are built mainly on two things:
1) you got a whole continent for free, only thing your forefathers had to do was to kill a few Indians
2) you had lots of free working power in the form of slaves

wow. while i agree about the tragedy of slavery and the genocide of the native americans, you really should take an American history course. i don't even know where to begin. what a convenient way to understand history.

If you tell me where to replace it please?
I have not used the terminus "AMERICANS" but the terminus "AMERICA". There is a difference. Replace America with any other country in the world where you see problems.

any other country in the world would be just as offended if i described it in the terms in which you used.

only difference is that because America is big and powerful and leaves a mighty footprint when it walks through the world, it appears as if lazy thinking and convenient understandings of history are acceptable to use.

 

[joyfulgirl]

oh come on.

i was at that protest and support many of their goals, i think Iraq was a bad idea, and i loath the Bushies.

I believe the great Cornel West was one of the ones arrested. One of my favorite people.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

I´m not Irvine.

I just wonder A LOT because while the KKK and some NeoNazis are allowed to walk around freely, and they are always defended (!!! how sweet of all you "free" people, haha) with that argument; whereas those who critisize the administations policies, are not allowed.

i'm not sure about other states, but i know in new york they have some rule which makes large protests/demonstrations of people wearing masks illegal...

so whereas the KKK may still be allowed to gather, they're not allowed to hide their identity with a mask.

they tried to hold a rally on long island a few years back... a group from down south... the fucking pussies didn't want to protest without covering their faces, so it never happened.

 

[hiphop]

firstly, in a democracy, the political system arises from the people. you'll admit that the political system is elastic, and its one guarantee is that it will look different in 10 years. you also toss out the usual cliches -- hamburgers -- and attach them to nothing.

diverse -- look at the ethnic make up of the US. we are only 75% caucasian, and that's falling fast. we have more people trying to immigrate into the US than all the rest of the countries of the world combined. as for success -- my standard, and you can obviously debate this, is the fact that we've amassed a 10 trillion dollar economy, have more Nobel Prize winners at the University of Chicago alone than in all of the UK, have easily the world's best university system, have put men on the moon, and pretty much dominate every field of human achievement from the Olympics to the Oscars.

now, this is not to say its an objectively *good* thing -- it is to say, though, by which standards of "success" can be measured the US is far and away the most successful country on earth.

soon it will be China. but for now, it's the US.



fair enough. that's an opinon. i've lived in both and love both and hate both -- at the end of the day, i ultimately feel much more empowered to do what i want with my life in the US.



well, tossing aside the Marshall Plan as just one thing is kind of like saying that the printing press was just another invention. but, anyway, what, pray tell, do you think stopped Soviet tanks from rolling into West Berlin? the countries of Europe, the UK aside, simply have not had a need to fund a military in a manner that would be adequate to defend their borders from a Soviet invasion. thus, because your safety is insured by the US, you are free to spend your much higher taxes on social benefits.



wow. while i agree about the tragedy of slavery and the genocide of the native americans, you really should take an American history course. i don't even know where to begin. what a convenient way to understand history.



any other country in the world would be just as offended if i described it in the terms in which you used.

only difference is that because America is big and powerful and leaves a mighty footprint when it walks through the world, it appears as if lazy thinking and convenient understandings of history are acceptable to use.

1) sure the pol. system arises from the people. I was stating this to make it clear to you that I was not badmouthing Americans as persons, but critisizing the above discussed.

2) as to the hamburgers: not that it dusturbs me, you know. Everyone shall eat what he wants and live as healthy or unhealthy as he wants. I just think its ugly. That´s just a personal opinion. crucify me for it, but have no clue why it would be that impotant to defend your position. It is a fact that extremely many U.S. citizens are fat. It´s also a fact that this is very unhealthy. It´s also a fact that millions die every year of diseases related to bad food and too much fat. And what is done against it, on local or federal level? if I was a political repres. i would lobby for minimum health (cholestrine etc.) standards in food, especailly when the citizens I represent are living so unhealthy, it is just in the interest of the country. take Italy for exaple. In primary school, the kids learn how to eat right! They will have a small plate of pasta, a small piece of meat, some vegetables and some fruit every single day from Monday to Friday. That´s only for the italians though, who place such extra-importance on the food of their kids. Most other EU countries dont do that.

3) diverse, in society and culturally: look at India. As to diversity of ethnic groups: look at Africa.
Successful in means of economy and wasting of resources: true, but you will agree that happens on the cost of the poor, 50 million people dying of hunger every year (same blame on Europe, btw)

America can´t be number one on all accounts, Irvine, because the modern America has a history of just 300 years, in compare to the 2000+ years in Europe and a couple more thousands in India or China. The term "most diverse and successful society in history" is plain superficial.

4) Agreed, your uni system is very good. Congrats to the Nobel prizers too. Many of your musicians are great. ok, the Oscars don´t really count, after all thats Hollywood for Hollywood. The former USSR put men on the moon as well - and remember, Sputnik was first

However, success can also be measured on being in peace with the rest of the world, being internationally respected.. lets measure it on the number of invasions into foreign countries since WW II, shall we?

5) as to the whole Soviet invasion scenario your strategists were busy to paint on our walls: we never had as much fear of the commies as you. We remember that it was also the Soviets who liberated us. They lost 20 millions of soldiers stopping Hitler.

Sure, I agree, who would like to live under their regime? Me surely not. We wouldn´t have enjoyed so many freedoms, be it politically, economically, etc.

But you know, thats all the past pretty much. Its been over for a decade, and what you say is wrong: our safety is not insured by the US (and never was, concerning the neutral European countries). The contrary is the case. The US starts a war and fucking suicide bombers appear all over Europe and kill hundreds of people. So please don´t even try to imply that YOU, of all countries, are providing our safety. You´re unable to save your own country, how should you be able to do that in Europe?

"only difference is that because America is big and powerful and leaves a mighty footprint when it walks through the world" well, yes, the size of the footprint makes a difference you know. I wouldn´t bother to write a paragraph about the Easter Islands. Stop this whole victimizing of America. It makes the image of your country even worse than it is already.


as to offending you and a couple of other American citizens (note the difference between "America" and American´s citizens, pls!), well, you can´t be topped with your french frogs and freedom fries, you know.

 

[hiphop]

i'm not sure about other states, but i know in new york they have some rule which makes large protests/demonstrations of people wearing masks illegal...

so whereas the KKK may still be allowed to gather, they're not allowed to hide their identity with a mask.

they tried to hold a rally on long island a few years back... a group from down south... the fucking pussies didn't want to protest without covering their faces, so it never happened.

That´s the very first positive thing I hear about this issue.

Thank you.

 

[Irvine511]

3) diverse, in society and culturally: look at India. As to diversity of ethnic groups: look at Africa. .

Africa is not a country.

i can't even bother with the rest.

you need your scapegoats, so i'll let you have them.

after all, if there's one thing Europeans know how to do, it's scapegoat.

 

[U2Man]

after all, if there's one thing Europeans know how to do, it's scapegoat.

 

[hiphop]

Africa is not a country.

i can't even bother with the rest.

you need your scapegoats, so i'll let you have them.

after all, if there's one thing Europeans know how to do, it's scapegoat.

True, true, Africa is not a country, and so what.

I think either you´re just tired of the discussion and too lazy to answer, or you are running out of arguments.

Too bad you need to blame that on your discussion partner. But I´ll let you have this easy way out.

 

[Irvine511]

True, true, Africa is not a country, and so what.

I think either you´re just tired of the discussion and too lazy to answer, or you are running out of arguments.

Too bad you need to blame that on your discussion partner. But I´ll let you have this easy way out.

we're not even having a discussion.

you're tossing out every cliche and stereotype and lazy reading of history imaginable. it would take more time than i have to comb through your posts and point out your various inaccuracies, distortions, and misconceptions. it's both that i don't have the time, and it's simply not worth my time. you know, as an American, i work 50 hours a week.

i will also point out that you never hear an American in FYM speaking as disparagingly about another country as you do.

 

[hiphop]

it's both that i don't have the time, and it's simply not worth my time. you know, as an American, i work 50 hours a week.

Oh you poor hardworking man, I am so sorry I took some of your precious time. May I remind you it was your decision to reply to my post.

Your provocations, like "after all, if there's one thing Europeans know how to do" don´t work.

Please stay out of this thread, if you have nothing to contribute.

 

[BVS]

I wouldn't even begin to compare the two.

Many felt the same about MLK's protest in the day as well. Just because you don't believe in the cause doesn't mean they aren't comparable.

 

[BVS]

The group arrested yesterday was led by a coalition of religious leaders. They were joined by anarchists, military families, Iraq war veterans and political activists of various stripes.

I like to see unity.





Question, I've never been arrested, so which misdemeanors warrant arrest, and do all arrests require fingerprinting?

 

[joyfulgirl]

i will also point out that you never hear an American in FYM speaking as disparagingly about another country as you do.

Very true. Hiphop, I agree with you on many issues but even I find your posts in this thread offensive.

 

[Rono]

i will also point out that you never hear an American in FYM speaking as disparagingly about another country as you do.

Well, maybe most of the Americans know nothing about europe.


*edit* Other countries

 

[Anthony]

Okay guys, really just cool it please. hiphop, I don't mean to single you out, but any chance you can tone it down a bit?

That also applies to everyone else... please keep it down.

Ant.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

it would be lovely if all participants in this thread could take a deep breath or two and try to leave out some of the more extreme generalisations about other land masses be they countries or continents.

and hiphop, posting a "fuck off" smiley is no more acceptable than directing the words "fuck off" at another poster. you know the rules - no personal attacks.