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Old 12-06-2006, 11:08 AM   #121
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diamond, I have many friends of other faiths as well! Heck, I have Buddhist and Jewish friends in my myspace top friends list. And believe it or not, I'm in their top friends as well I totally love and appreciate people of other faiths. I have no problem with these people. Like Mormonism, there's great, kind people who follow these faiths. Heck, I'm sure you and I would get along great if we went out for dinner or something. I'll totally buy you dinner if I'm in your neighborhood. I just don't see how disagreeing equates to hate or intolerance -- especially when some of what I'm presenting isn't even my opinion, but fact. Are we all just supposed to give into each other and not stand for anything?
And as far as your faith being accepting of other faiths, I've honestly never heard that — even from Mormons and ex-Mormons I know. They were taught their church was the one true church, or their faith was the one true faith. Jesus said he's the only way, not me. I can't apologize for that statement, you know? And the verse from Galatians saying people shouldn't accept a Gospel other than that presented in the Bible, I didn't write that either. And think about it —*if all religions are true, than Christianity is true. Christianity tells us God sent his son to die in our place so his righteousness may be credited to us, therefore we can have forgiveness and be right with God. If God sent his son to die for this reason, but then accepted every other faith as a path to him, doesn't that kind of make his son's death pointless? I have to think if God came down here, walked among us and died one of the worst deaths imaginable, and then rose from the dead, that he would make it count. It would have a unique purpose. A God who dies in our place for our eternal benefit, but then accepts other ways to the same eternal benefit isn't a just God at all. Does that make sense?

And the long list of people you have there —*I appreciate their posts and perspectives, too. Many of them have taught me a lot. They're great people. With all due respect though, I don't see how you can list those names and then call me insecure?

And hey, if the Mormon faith brings you happiness, gives you answers to life and helps you love people more, that's great. I respect that. But there are serious differences between the Mormon faith and Christianity, yet Mormon's say they're Christian. Christians say they aren't. It's not splitting hairs over doctrinal issues, these are canyons of differences we're talking about. Don't you think that's worth discussing?
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Old 12-06-2006, 11:52 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Who said anything about hating hypocrites? Read my post again.
It's not the hypocrisy itself that has spawned the hatred, it's the fact that it came from a conservative.
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Old 12-06-2006, 12:21 PM   #123
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
It's not the hypocrisy itself that has spawned the hatred, it's the fact that it came from a conservative.
Um, no.

Anyways now you're just changing the subject.
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Old 12-06-2006, 12:33 PM   #124
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What does he have to do with any of this? We can play hypocrisy tit for tat all day-but that won't change what a phony user Mitt is.
You made a statement about how running to be the leader of the free world is a different story.

Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
John Kerry never bad mouthed MA and its' people as soon as he got what he wanted by using his position as a stepping stone when he was running for President-from what I can remember, he did nothing but praise it. He wasn't going to South Carolina or anywhere else and mocking it and the people he served as Senator.

John Kerry never stood around ranting about gay marriage literally while people were in danger of freezing to death on the streets because of his imaginary created budget crisis and cuts.

John Kerry didn't rant about illegal immigrants for political purposes all the while using them to manicure his golf course lawn.
Kerry supported the No Child Left Behind Act, the Patriot Act, and The War in Iraq - before criticizing them all.

Kerry has shown a deep-seeded resentment towards anyone who served in uniform.

“You know, education, if you make the most of it, if you study hard and do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, uh, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.”

That's only his most recent Freudian slip.


(Audiotape, April 18, 1971):

MR. CROSBY NOYES (Washington Evening Star): Mr. Kerry, you said at one time or another that you think our policies in Vietnam are tantamount to genocide and that the responsibility lies at all chains of command over there. Do you consider that you personally as a Naval officer committed atrocities in Vietnam or crimes punishable by law in this country?

SEN. KERRY: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.

(End audiotape)

MR. RUSSERT: Thirty years later, you stand by that?

SEN. KERRY: I don't stand by the genocide. I think those were the words of an angry young man. We did not try to do that. But I do stand by the description--I don't even believe there is a purpose served in the word "war criminal." I really don't. But I stand by the rest of what happened over there, Tim.

Sen. Kerry: "[T]here is no reason, Bob, that young American soldiers need to be going into the homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children ..."
CBS' "Face The Nation," 12/4/05

Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
Vote for Mitt for President and you will regret it. But at least if he ever becomes President he won't be using it as a stepping stone, unless he has the desire to become King Of The World (which he probably does). His Lt Gov lost the election for governor to a man with no political experience that I know of other than his civil rights job under Clinton (great job and nothing wrong with that, but it's not running a state or even a city or town) partially due to her association with Romney-what does that tell you? She lost for other reasons (mainly her nasty negative ads) but the Mitt thing was still important. People were desperate for a change from life under Mitt. People in MA don't take kindly to feeling used and abused and are intelligent and savvy.
On the "badmouthing MA" issue, I don't know much about, nor do I really care. As far as policy goes, Mitt is far more reasonable than anyone else running against him within the Republican Party. In terms of ideas and policies, I agree with Romney on almost everything.
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Old 12-06-2006, 12:43 PM   #125
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This thread is a mess.

If anyone still has any enthusiasm left for civilly discussing Mitt Romney and what they think of his policies, then fine. I know the original post specifically touched on Mormonism, but I don't think Irvine intended to kick off a my-faith-is-better-than-yours spat, let alone some of the other spats in here.
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Old 12-06-2006, 01:44 PM   #126
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I'm fine with that. But I have to say, it's not a my faith is better than your's spat for the heck of it. It came up out of a discussion concerning the Christian right supporting a Mormon.

I'm fine with getting back to Romney. My opinion -- I'm not going to support the religious right anyway.
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Old 12-06-2006, 03:31 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

On the "badmouthing MA" issue, I don't know much about, nor do I really care. As far as policy goes, Mitt is far more reasonable than anyone else running against him within the Republican Party. In terms of ideas and policies, I agree with Romney on almost everything.
You seem to be from Ohio. But Mrs. Springsteen, being from MA, is perfectly valid in using this as a reason to dislike Romney. It shows a great disrespect for the people of the state who elected him governor, it hasn't helped us attract businesses and jobs and population at a rough time for the state. Combined with his leap to the right on many, many issues, it makes it obvious that he was just using us to bolster his resume for a presidential run. He is not a leader, was never interested in genuine civil service in that he hasn't spent two days in a row in the statehouse for the past year and hasn't done anything but photo ops when everything from natural to manmade disasters have struck. He's interested in his own self advancement, not that of the state, and we have the right to be mad about it and to tell the rest of the country about it. Romney is not a leader.

As for Kerry, I haven't liked him for quite a while, but I can explain his and Kennedy's withdrawal of support for NCLB: it has gone unfunded and unsupported and because of this it's hurting our schools. For the Patriot Act, I am still mad at Kerry, but for that and the Iraq war, at least he has the intelligence and integrity to say "I made a mistake, I was wrong, I've reconsidered the facts and new information." It would do certain presidents well to learn from that.



Mrs. Springsteen, .
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Old 12-06-2006, 05:11 PM   #128
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Re: so ... Mitt Romney.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
politics and policies aside, let's take a look at the man.

much of the discussion from the right wing of the country since George W. Bush appeared on the scene has been about how religion and faith matter, that we don't need and shouldn't want a firewall between political life and religious life, and it's fairly clear that many have voted for W mostly because of his evangelical protestanism.

so ... does Romney's Mormanism make you more or less likely to vote for him?

be honest.
Getting back to the original question about Mitt and his religion LDS (Mormon, not Morman), it seems religion wasn't a negative factor in these fellow Mormon Senators' elections.







*note the subtle LDS inner glow all these fine senators possess..

That said I would be more worried about this "christain" fellow as President:



over this Mormon fellow:



Capeesh?

thought so.

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Old 12-06-2006, 05:19 PM   #129
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Yes, because equating a Mormon Senator elected in UTAH (or for that matter in neighbouring Nevada) is equivalent to a Mormon president getting support in the evangelical south.

Sort of like me saying that because Nancy Pelosi had no trouble getting elected in San Francisco, she can win a general election. Let's get real here.

I honestly don't care what religion anyone running for office is so long as they keep it out of their politics. That said, the religious right does care. A lot. And I do believe he'll run into trouble there. Which is really all sorts of entertaining for me: you do reap what you sow.
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Old 12-06-2006, 05:26 PM   #130
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now we're a Geography major?

and in the 1960s in Michigan..how was George Romney elected; by only Mormons who lived there like 1% of the population?




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Old 12-06-2006, 05:53 PM   #131
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I would tend to think people would take more stock in a president's faith than a senator's. Plus, we're talking the whole country voting on this one.
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Old 12-06-2006, 05:55 PM   #132
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dunno.

I do know narrow minded ppl in the 1960s tried to discredit JKF because of his ethnic and religious heritage.

It didn't work.

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Old 12-06-2006, 05:59 PM   #133
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What I find hilarious about this is that it is the religious right (and I most certainly lump Mormons in there) are the ones who have consistently and constantly insisted that a person's faith matters in an election. Those crazy gays, feminists and atheists! And now, you have the same people who insisted that things like religion and family values are inherently linked to getting elected are the ones saying we should look beyond a man's faith to see what he actually stands for.

LOL. Schadenfreude, you've got to love it.
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Old 12-06-2006, 06:01 PM   #134
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It doesn't look good, diamond.


Romney's Religion May Be Hurdle in Presidential Bid (Update1)
By Heidi Przybyla

July 3 (Bloomberg) -- Religion hasn't been an issue in American presidential politics since 1960. That may change in 2008 if Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney, a Mormon, remains a leading candidate for the Republican nomination.

More than a third of registered voters -- 35 percent -- say they wouldn't vote for a Mormon for president, the latest Bloomberg/Los Angeles Times poll finds. That's considerably more than say they wouldn't vote for a Catholic, Jew or evangelical Christian. Only a Muslim gets a higher negative response.

Among all respondents, 37 percent say they wouldn't vote for a Mormon. More than two in five Democrats say they wouldn't do so, while about a third of both Republicans and independents say they wouldn't. Females are slightly more negative toward a Mormon candidate than males.

``It's a sign that this is going to be a factor in Romney's campaign,'' said Scott Rasmussen, an independent pollster and president of Rasmussen Research in Ocean Grove, New Jersey.

By comparison, 22 percent of registered voters say they wouldn't support an evangelical Christian, 14 percent wouldn't back a Jewish candidate, and 9 percent say no to a Catholic. Fifty-three percent say they wouldn't vote for a Muslim.

The anti-Mormon rating ``is a concern, but you have to remember this is all hypothetical now without even mentioning a candidate,'' said Susan Pinkus, the Los Angeles Times' polling director. ``It all hinges on who the candidate is and how the public perceives him.''

Fading Issue?

In an interview on Friday, U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary Michael Leavitt said the religion issue will fade over time.

``I think it will be a curiosity to people,'' said Leavitt, a former Utah governor who is also a Mormon. ``There will be a lot of folks who will say, `I am worried a lot of people will worry about that.' I don't. In time, people's curiosity will be satisfied and it will ultimately not be a factor.''

Julie Teer, a Romney spokeswoman, said Romney typically doesn't comment on polls.

The Bloomberg/Los Angeles Times poll surveyed 1,321 adults nationwide, including 1,170 registered voters, from June 24 through June 27. The poll has a sampling margin of error of plus or minus three percentage points.

Romney, 59, grew up in the Mormon church and led a group of Boston-area congregations for eight years before running for governor. In a March interview with Bloomberg News, he said he faces frequent questions about his religion but that people of different faiths identify with the core values of Mormonism, including a strong family, honesty and respect for human life.

Kennedy Speech

The last time religion was a factor in a presidential election was when John F. Kennedy, a Catholic, ran in 1960. Kennedy captured the presidency after defusing the issue in a Sept. 12, 1960, speech before the Greater Houston Ministerial Association, a Baptist organization.

``I believe in a president whose religious views are his own private affair, neither imposed by him upon the nation or imposed by the nation upon him as a condition to holding that office,'' Kennedy said in the speech.

Romney said in March that he expects his religion to be an issue if he pursues the presidency. ``There ultimately will be a time when someone will go overboard, where someone will say something beyond the mark,'' he said. ``And hopefully I will be able to rise to the occasion in a way that's memorable.''

Social Concerns

Among some voters, social concerns may be partly driving the anti-Mormon numbers, said John Green, a political scientist at the University of Akron in Ohio who studies the impact of religion on politics. ``It looks like while there may be a religious factor here, it's also an ideological factor,'' he said. ``Liberals are concerned about Mormons.''

Some prominent Mormons, including Romney, have supported a ban on gay marriage and limits on abortion rights and stem-cell research.

Among political groups, the highest opposition to a Mormon candidacy comes from people who describe themselves as liberal Democrats, 50 percent of whom say they wouldn't vote for a Mormon. Thirty-three percent of moderate Republicans say they wouldn't, as do 35 percent of conservative Republicans.

Support for a Mormon candidate tends to rise with education and income levels, the poll shows. Sixty-six percent of college graduates and 70 percent of those with incomes of more than $100,000 a year say they could vote for a Mormon presidential candidate.

Minorities, Evangelicals

Minorities are more opposed to a Mormon than whites, with 51 percent saying they wouldn't vote for one, versus 31 percent of whites. Sixty percent of nonwhite Protestants say no to a Mormon president.

A Mormon candidacy would also likely draw some opposition from evangelical Christians, Green said. ``Some evangelical churches actually label the Latter-Day Saints as a cult,'' he said. Mormonism's formal name the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Some of the church's teachings differ from those of other Christian denominations. Mormonism says that the early Christian church fell from the truth and that ``in the latter days'' Christ has been restoring it through modern-day prophets, starting in 1820 with Mormon church founder Joseph Smith.
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Old 12-06-2006, 06:01 PM   #135
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen

And it's certainly not the first time that you have made comments here indicating that you think the intelligence level of FYM is below yours (I remember many), I have just never said anything. Sorry, we are all just inferior. I don't have PM's, thankfully-and I don't wish to continue anything.
You have no idea how much I respect and look forward to your posts.

If you do not understand why I think something that borders on politically trumped up garbage, cest la vie. I have every right as you do to call bullshit when I see it.

As for your twisting of my words to mean something they were not intended, that is on you. You have a beef with me, fine. You called me on it. I am not apologizing for the twisiting around of the intent of my post.

You don't want to continue anything, that is fine. I will continue to call bullshit when I see it. Republican or Democrat. I have been consistent in this since I arrived here, and will continue to do so until the end.
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