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Old 11-08-2007, 05:40 PM   #541
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


I think Republicans are done with this as a whole, w/the exception of national security issues.

dbs
What evidence of this "change" do you have?
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Old 11-08-2007, 07:37 PM   #542
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Originally posted by diamond
Thank you for your kind words.
I don't have a testimony of the Bible truths based on it's historicity-if a person needs that, I think that's sad-but won't belittle his Faith as some have attempted to do to mine.

You didn't win any arguments here because I never fully engaged in any, nor will I, my Faith isn't based on needing physical proof or historicity, as you seem to need for yours.

Until God The Father or Christ comes down and appears to you personally and commisions you or one of the leaders of your Faith and tells you and your leaders of your Faith :
to label the LDS Church as "cultists", I would encourage you and others not to do so.

Again I refer you to:
"But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned," (Matt. 12:36).

God Bless,

dbs
I don't need the proof of historicity for my faith, but it's comforting it's there. And it's odd that it's close to 2,000 years older than Mormonism, and it has a growing amount of historical support, while The Book of Mormon isn't even recognized by the Smithsonian as a historical document because there's no support for it. I would feel uncomfortable putting my faith in something that has no historical foundation and is based on scribbled notes by someone with an eighth-grade reading level that's considered divine revelation. Also, the Bible even tells us to "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have." (1 Peter 3:15) We're called to share and defend our faith. There's nothing wrong with what I'm doing here.

As far as Matthew 12:36, you're using it out of context to fit your own beliefs (something common to Mormonism).
First off, you're using a quote from Christ in reference to something immediate, not a new faith started about 1,800 years later.
Secondly, he's talking about how the Pharisees were attributing his authenticating miracles done in the power of the Holy Spirit to Satan. If you read the verse with the verses around it, or in context, you'll discover this. This is the best way to read the Bible. It's dangerous to just pick and choose random vereses to fit your personal views. Christ even says a few verses earlier "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven . . ." So even if Mormonism were true, the verse can't say what you're trying to make it say. I'm just speaking against Mormonism (which wasn't even around at the time of this passage), not Christ and certainly not the Holy Spirit. So I can't be condemned. Sorry, dbs. I know you're crushed.



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Old 11-08-2007, 08:16 PM   #543
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


I don't need the proof of historicity for my faith, but it's comforting it's there. And it's odd that it's close to 2,000 years older than Mormonism, and it has a growing amount of historical support, while The Book of Mormon isn't even recognized by the Smithsonian as a historical document because there's no support for it. I would feel uncomfortable putting my faith in something that has no historical foundation and is based on scribbled notes by someone with an eighth-grade reading level that's considered divine revelation. Also, the Bible even tells us to "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have." (1 Peter 3:15) We're called to share and defend our faith. There's nothing wrong with what I'm doing here.

As far as Matthew 12:36, you're using it out of context to fit your own beliefs (something common to Mormonism).
First off, you're using a quote from Christ in reference to something immediate, not a new faith started about 1,800 years later.
Secondly, he's talking about how the Pharisees were attributing his authenticating miracles done in the power of the Holy Spirit to Satan. If you read the verse with the verses around it, or in context, you'll discover this. This is the best way to read the Bible. It's dangerous to just pick and choose random vereses to fit your personal views. Christ even says a few verses earlier "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven . . ." So even if Mormonism were true, the verse can't say what you're trying to make it say. I'm just speaking against Mormonism (which wasn't even around at the time of this passage), not Christ and certainly not the Holy Spirit. So I can't be condemned. Sorry, dbs. I know you're crushed.



Well my challenge remains:

Quote:
Until God The Father or Christ comes down and appears to you personally and commisions you or one of the leaders of your Faith and tells you and your leaders of your Faith :

to label the LDS Church as "cultists", I would encourage you and others not to do so.


Based on your post(s) you seem to have a limited amount of knowledge of the Book of Mormon, it's orgins, the method of it's translation and it's translator -Joseph Smith.

It wasn't scribbled notes by Joseph Smith:

Quote:
Could you write the Book of Mormon under the same conditions that Joseph Smith wrote it?
1. You must be between twenty-three and twenty-four years of age.
2. You cannot be a college graduate. In fact, you can have only three years of formal schooling.
3. Whatever you write must be on the basis of what you know and not what you learn through research.
4. You must write a history of an ancient country, such as Tibet, covering a period from 2200 BC to 421 AD
5. You must write a book with 102 chapters, twenty-five of them about wars, ten about history, twenty-one about prophecy, thirty-two about doctrines, five about missionaries, and nine about the mission of Christ.
6. You must include in your writings the history of two distinct and separate nations, along with histories of different contemporary nations or groups of people.
7. Your writings must describe the religious, economic, social, and political cultures and institutions of these two nations.
8. You must weave into your history the religion of Jesus Christ and the pattern for Christian living.
9. When you start to produce this record covering a period of over 2,600 years, you must finish it in approximately eighty days (less than three months).
10. When you have finished, you must not make any charges in the text. The first edition must stand forever (this does not include grammatical errors, etc.).
11. After pauses for sleep and food, if you are dictating to a stenographer, you must never ask to have the last paragraph or last sentence read back to you. You must start right where you stopped previously.
12. Your history or record must be long, approximately 777 pages with over 500 words per page.
13. You must add 180 proper nouns to the English language (William Shakespeare added thirty).
14. You must announce that your “smooth narrative” is not fiction, but true-yes, a sacred history.
15. In fact, your narrative must fulfill the Bible prophecies; even in the exact manner in which it shall come forth, to whom given, and its purpose and accomplishments.
16. You must publish it to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, declaring it to be the Word of God.
17. You must include with the record itself this marvelous promise: “And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.”
18. Tens of thousands must bear record to the world for the next 164 years that they know the record to be true. Because they put the promise to the test, the truth is manifested to them by the power of the Holy Ghost.
19. Thousands of great men, intellectual giants, and scholars, must subscribe discipleship to the record of its movement, even to the point of laying down their lives.
20. There can be now flaw, whatever, in the entire book (except in grammar, or other errors of man in transcribing,etc.).
21. Your descriptions of the cultures in these civilizations, of which you will write about, is not known when you publish your manuscript.
22. Yet, you must not make any absurd, impossible, or contradictory statements.
23. Even so, many of the facts, ideas, and statements given as true in your record must be entirely inconsistent with, even the direct opposite of, the prevailing belief of the world. Yet very little is even claimed to be known about these civilizations and their thousands of years of history.
24. you must invite the ablest scholars and experts to examine the text with care. You must strive diligently to see that your book gets into the hands of all those most eager to prove it a forgery and who are most competent to expose any flaws in it.
25. After 164 years of extensive analysis, no claim or fact in the book is disproven, but all are vindicated. Other theories and ideas as to its origin rise and fall, leaving your claims as the only possible ones.
26. Thorough investigation, scientific evidence, and archaeological discoveries for the next 164 years must verify your claims and prove even the minutest details of your history to be perfectly true.
27. Internal and external prophecies must be confirmed and fulfilled in the next 164 years.
28. Three honest, accreditable witnesses must testify to the whole world that an angel from heaven appeared to them and showed them the ancient records from which you claim your record was translated.
29. You must hear out of heaven the voice of the Redeemer declaring to you and those three witnesses that your record is true, and that it is their responsibility to bear testimony of it- and that they do.
30. Eight other witnesses must testify to the world that they saw the ancient records in broad daylight, and that they handled them and felt the engravings thereon.
31. The first three and the second eight witnesses must bear their testimony, not for profit or gain, but under great personal sacrifice and severe persecution , even to their deaths.
32. You must talk a friend into financing your book with the understanding that he or you will never receive any monetary remuneration from it. This person must mortgage his farm to have it printed. You must sell the book at cost or less.
33. Finally, after suffering persecution and revilement for twenty-four years in the process of producing and defending this book, you must give, willingly, your own life for your testimony that the record is of God.


--------

dbs

ps-

Have you read the Bible in it's entirety?

I've read the Bible cover to cover and understand about not taking scriptures out of context-and I think the scripture was cited correctly pertinent to the issue at hand. By referring to a group of believers in Christ "cultists" you will have to answer for it the same way the Pharisees spoke wrongly about Christ and his believers in the New Testament.

thanks.
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Old 11-08-2007, 08:54 PM   #544
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34. You must plagerize a good deal of the Old Testament
35. You must murder two men.
36. You must posses two guns while in jail on charges of treason
37. You must die in a gun battle
38. You must have more in common with David Koresh than you do Christ.
39. You must claim God calls you to become a polygamist
40. You must make false prophecies claiming Missouri is the location of Zion and a refuge for the saints with a new temple, only to be driven out of the state.
41. You must falsely prophecise that Christ is coming in 1843 and then 1891.
42. You must fail to make a long list of prophecies found here http://www.exmormon.org/prophet.htm despite the fact the Bible says "You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously . . . " Deut 18:21-22

I could go on, but I'll stop there for now.



Actually, I have completed the Bible recently.
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Old 11-08-2007, 09:13 PM   #545
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See what I love is that all people are capable of rational thought; if only to be used as a weapon against some other believers fairy tale.
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Old 11-08-2007, 09:17 PM   #546
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A_Wanderer, how you been? You're getting close to 10,000 posts. I bet you're excited.
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Old 11-08-2007, 09:47 PM   #547
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Rather arbitrary to me

But as long as I may have provoked some introspection
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Old 11-08-2007, 10:04 PM   #548
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Zogby: Romney Dominating Iowa Still

Thursday, November 8, 2007 9:45 AM

By: Newsmax Staff Article Font Size



Mitt Romney retains his lead over all other Republican presidential candidates in early caucus state Iowa, according to the latest poll from Zogby International.

In the poll of GOP caucus voters, to be released Thursday night, 31.3 percent of respondents said that if the Republican caucus were held today, they would vote for Romney.

Rudy Giuliani, although the front-runner in most polls nationwide, still lags in Iowa, with just 10.6 percent of the vote in the latest poll. He now trails Mike Huckabee, who got a respectable 15 percent of the vote.

Fred Thompson is also lagging — he received 9.7 percent of the vote — and John McCain got a disappointing 7.7 percent.

Ron Paul tallied 4.4 percent, and no other candidate received more than 3 percent.

Romney’s support is solid in all age groups, and is especially strong in the 18-to-29 demographic. He also maintains large leads among voters who say their ideology is “moderate” or “conservative,” and he even polls strongly among those who say they are “liberal,” running second only to McCain.

But more than half of respondents say they could change their mind about the candidates between now and the caucus in January — 43.5 percent said they are “somewhat likely” to change their mind, and 15.8 percent said they were “very likely.”


© 2007 Newsmax. All rights reserved.
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Old 11-09-2007, 08:11 AM   #549
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


This is why I wonder if Pat's endorsement has some of that 'Mormon's aren't real Christians' mentality...
That's the first thing I thought of when I heard about this. Somebody needs to send a memo to the Religious Right and let them know we don't live in a theocracy. However, if that's what turns them on, I hear Iran is nice for that. For the life of me, I can't figure out why anyone would choose to support a candidate who disagrees with everything he or she stands for, yet believes the same thing about Jesus that he or she does.
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Old 11-09-2007, 01:35 PM   #550
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DNC auctions Romney "Flip Flop Kit"

WASHINGTON (CNN) – The Democratic National Committee criticized former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney Friday for encouraging supporters to sell their old belongings to help stock his presidential campaign war chest and said that he has "outgrown" his policy positions.

Romney's campaign launched "Mitt Market," a Web page where people can sell their possessions and direct the proceeds to be sent to his presidential campaign in the form of a donation. His campaign asked for "bicycles that the kids have outgrown to old electronics or baseball cards" and said "your stuff may be someone else's treasure."

As a response, the DNC is auctioning its own "Mitt Romney Flip Flop Kit" on ebay, which includes a DVD and flash cards with Romney's "more infamous flip-flops." The DNC said the proceeds will go a local animal shelter in honor of Romney's dog, Seamus, which he acknowledged rode in a dog carrier on top of the car during a family road trip.

Romney spokesman Kevin Madden said this shows that Democrats are worried about running against the former governor.

"The DNC spends an awful lot of time both worrying about and attacking Governor Romney," Madden said. "It just proves that the last person they want to run against is a chief executive like Governor Romney with a proven record of accomplishment who is determined to change the status quo of Washington and the free-spending, high-taxing ways of the Beltway Democrats."

"I’d put a list of actual Democratic accomplishments in this year’s Congress up for bid on e-Bay too if I could, but there aren’t any," Madden added.
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Old 11-10-2007, 01:09 AM   #551
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
34. You must plagerize a good deal of the Old Testament
35. You must murder two men.
36. You must posses two guns while in jail on charges of treason
37. You must die in a gun battle
38. You must have more in common with David Koresh than you do Christ.
39. You must claim God calls you to become a polygamist
40. You must make false prophecies claiming Missouri is the location of Zion and a refuge for the saints with a new temple, only to be driven out of the state.
41. You must falsely prophecise that Christ is coming in 1843 and then 1891.
42. You must fail to make a long list of prophecies found here http://www.exmormon.org/prophet.htm despite the fact the Bible says "You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously . . . " Deut 18:21-22

I could go on, but I'll stop there for now.



Actually, I have completed the Bible recently.
Quote:
prophecise
First of all please learn to spell prophesy



I touched on some of these items before (the Bible plagiarizes itself does that make the Bible false?)
Joseph didn't plagerize the Bible-(he noticed that the prophecies were similar and inserted Isaiah's words as suitable.)

Also, if you understood the Bible, some prophecies are conditional: you have taken some quotes out of context and the Church never believed that the 2nd coming would happen in 1843 or 1891, the scriptures indicate that "no man knows the day of the coming of the Lord, but the Father"-that's what our Church teaches.

Polygamy was practiced for 50 years early in the Church history by less than 2% of a few selected faithful members because Joesph was instructed to by an Angel of God to do this; the Church has since quit the practice over 100 plus years ago, as it had served it's purpose.


That Joesph was promised protection by the Govenor Ford and assassinated in June of 1844 while awaiting trail by men with painted faces, if you want to make heros out of murderers-go right ahead: that is to your spiritual demise. That Joesph picked 2 off in self defense- doesn't make him a murderer.

Attempting to link Joesph Smith to David Koresh shows not only your ignorance but the is height of absurdity -when comparing the 2 men's legacies.


Here is what the Mayor of Boston, Josiah Quincy a non Mormon said when meeting Joseph Smith in the 1840s:

It is by no means improbable that some future textbook, for the use of generations yet unborn, will contain a question something like this: What historical American of the nineteenth century has exerted the most powerful influence upon the destinies of his countrymen? And it is by no means impossible that the answer to that interrogatory may be thus written: Joseph Smith, the Mormon prophet.


You are coemgen the unwitting fulfillement of prophecy uttered by the Angel Moroni, this is what he told Joseph before giving him instructions of translating the Book of Mormon:

33 He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people

You post links to the same tried and tired aruguments that never have had any real traction; the Mormon Church is the 4th largest Christian denomination in the USA, it continues to flourish, continues to spread Christinaity through out the world regardless of how you think Christianity should be understood.

If the arguments you posted had validity -the LDS Church would have disintegrated a long time ago.

If the Book of Mormon was a a concoction of Joseph Smith based on his "scribbles" as you alleged earlier- the Church would have disbanded.

So continue to kick "against the pricks" and "fight the Saints of God" as Paul speaks of in the New Testament and I will hold a prayer in my heart that you and others that choose to do this will find something more productive to do in your "Christian" efforts.

Please stop casting aspersions about the beliefs of my Church.

You and those of your ilk will have to answer for your idle words.

Thanks,

dbs
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Old 11-10-2007, 06:38 AM   #552
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
First of all please learn to spell

plagerize
Joesph
heros
Joesph
Hello pot, this is kettle.
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Old 11-11-2007, 05:20 PM   #553
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I touched on some of these items before (the Bible plagiarizes itself does that make the Bible false?)
Joseph didn't plagerize the Bible-(he noticed that the prophecies were similar and inserted Isaiah's words as suitable.)
The Bible doesn’t plagiarize itself. The New Testament references the Old Testament, but it doesn’t steal words and phrases and claim it’s a “new revelation from God.” Smith not only stole about 30,000 words/phrases from the OT and called it his own, he created names of cities and people by taking cities and people from the OT, and switching the letters. I’ve posted this many times here and it’s widely available on the Internet. Does that sound like a prophet?

Quote:
Originally posted by diamond

Also, if you understood the Bible, some prophecies are conditional: you have taken some quotes out of context and the Church never believed that the 2nd coming would happen in 1843 or 1891, the scriptures indicate that "no man knows the day of the coming of the Lord, but the Father"-that's what our Church teaches.
You just laid out a great argument against Joseph Smith -- why would a true prophet prophesize about something he’s not supposed to know? That sounds pretty silly.
"President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending us while journeying to Zion--our trials, sufferings; and said God had not designed all this for nothing, but He had it in remembrance yet; and it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh--even fifty-six years should wind up the scene." (History of the Church, Vol. 2:189)
Jesus did not return within fifty-six years when 1891 arrived.
Here’s another silly prophecy he made, with proof he made it: http://www.carm.org/lds/docs/HC_5_394.htm

Quote:
Originally posted by diamond

Polygamy was practiced for 50 years early in the Church history by less than 2% of a few selected faithful members because Joesph was instructed to by an Angel of God to do this; the Church has since quit the practice over 100 plus years ago, as it had served it's purpose.
It was stopped because it was deemed illegal. Then church leaders changed their views. Utah also wanted to gain statehood.

Quote:
Originally posted by diamond

Attempting to link Joesph Smith to David Koresh shows not only your ignorance but the is height of absurdity -when comparing the 2 men's legacies.
They may have had different outcomes, but the similarities are there still.

Quote:
Originally posted by diamond

Here is what the Mayor of Boston, Josiah Quincy a non Mormon said when meeting Joseph Smith in the 1840s:
It is by no means improbable that some future textbook, for the use of generations yet unborn, will contain a question something like this: What historical American of the nineteenth century has exerted the most powerful influence upon the destinies of his countrymen? And it is by no means impossible that the answer to that interrogatory may be thus written: Joseph Smith, the Mormon prophet.
This holds no value. Obviously, people were drawn to him. People were drawn to David Koresh, too.

Quote:
Originally posted by diamond

You are coemgen the unwitting fulfillement of prophecy uttered by the Angel Moroni, this is what he told Joseph before giving him instructions of translating the Book of Mormon:

33 He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people

You post links to the same tried and tired aruguments that never have had any real traction; the Mormon Church is the 4th largest Christian denomination in the USA, it continues to flourish, continues to spread Christinaity through out the world regardless of how you think Christianity should be understood.
The size of the Mormon church doesn’t prove my arguments are wrong. That’s faulty logic. Also, it’s not continuing to flourish:
Mormon portion of Utah population steadily shrinking
The Salt Lake Tribune
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2886596
As far as your scripture, you’re right: his name has been used wrong . . .


Quote:
Originally posted by diamond

If the arguments you posted had validity -the LDS Church would have disintegrated a long time ago.
Well, except your church draws people in and then doesn’t allow people to question it. It also puts strong guilt on those who leave and changes what it believes. These are all signs of a cult.

Quote:
Originally posted by diamond

If the Book of Mormon was a a concoction of Joseph Smith based on his "scribbles" as you alleged earlier- the Church would have disbanded.
Yes, that explains why the Book of Mormon has been changed so much over the years. If the Book of Mormon is true, then why has the Mormon church changed it? Examples are: 1 Nephi 11:21; 19:20; 20:1 and Alma 29:4. Compare these with the original Book of Mormon. (Gerald and Sandra Tanner – the great-great-granddaughter of Brigham Young -- have counted 3,913 changes in the book of Mormon, excluding punctuation changes.)

Quote:
Originally posted by diamond

So continue to kick "against the pricks" and "fight the Saints of God" as Paul speaks of in the New Testament and I will hold a prayer in my heart that you and others that choose to do this will find something more productive to do in your "Christian" efforts.
Please stop casting aspersions about the beliefs of my Church.
You and those of your ilk will have to answer for your idle words.
If I see a counterfeit posing as the truth, I’m going to call it out – especially when it claims to be “Christian.” And, once again, you’re judging me. Do you really have the authority to condemn me, or is it just out of frustration that you’re resulting to that?

Here’s some more questions I have for you:
• If the Book of Mormon is true, why do Indians fail to turn white when they become Mormons? (2 Nephi 30:6, prior to the 1981 revision).
• If Moroni devoutly practiced the Mormon Gospel, why is he an angel now rather than a God? (Doc. & Cov. 132:17,37)
• Why did the Nauvoo House not stand forever and ever? (Doc. & Cov. 124:56-60).
• If Jesus was conceived as a result of a physical union between God and Mary, how was Jesus born of a virgin? (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 50).
• How did Nephi with a few men on a new continent build a temple like Solomon's while Solomon needed 163,300 workmen and seven years to build his temple? (1 Kings 5:13-18 and 2 Nephi 5:15-17).
• God rejected the fig leaf aprons which Adam and Eve made (Gen. 3:21). Why do Mormons memorialize the fall by using fig leaf aprons in the secret temple ceremonies?
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Old 11-11-2007, 05:49 PM   #554
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I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but I find it interesting that Mitt Romney would talk to lawyers in order to decide whether he should or should not ask Congress for approval to go to war.



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Old 11-11-2007, 11:23 PM   #555
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen

coemgen -

The arguments you've posted I've heard before; they're nothing new or ground breaking.

The Church has a membership of 13 million, with a quater of a million joining in 2006.

The Mormon Church continues to grow and rings true to hundreds of thousands of people who join it annually.

It doesn't keep people from leaving who decide to leave; I left for 25 years and was never made to feel gulity about it- and came back when I was comfortable.

I told you I wasn't here to debate the tenets of my Faith.

Your pre occupation with trying to tear down the LDS Church isn't a healthy one.

best,

dbs
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