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Old 12-10-2006, 04:50 PM   #166
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I think all theological questions about the LDS faith and Christ's Gospel contained in the LDS church could and should be discussed in this thread:

http://forum.interference.com/showth...n&pagenumber=1
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Old 12-10-2006, 04:58 PM   #167
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Sorry Diamond, didn't mean to overthrow the thread.
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Old 12-10-2006, 05:47 PM   #168
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Originally posted by macphisto23


I am still trying to figure out how we are not christians? I understand we believe in The Father, His Son, and The Holy Ghost as three seperate personages, but I am wondering how we are not christians because of this?
First of all, macphisto23, diamond and other Mormons who may be here -- I'm not trying to attack you or the sincerity of your beliefs. There are, I feel, glaring differences between Christianity and Mormonism that shouldn't just be swept aside. Discussion is a good thing and I do appreciate your posts.

Second of all, this is going to be long. I apologize. There’s a lot to discuss.

To answer your question, macphisto23, I'll again point to the Trinity. If you see Jesus as one of many gods and I see him as THE God, then we see him differently, right? The Bible is very clear -- Old Testament and New Testament -- that "there is but one God." Jesus himself not only believed this, he claimed he is it. He is this truth. If you follow him, shouldn't you know his nature? Shouldn't you acknowledge who he says he is?
Mormonism not only teaches that God is one of many gods, it also teaches that God used to be a man on another planet, and that he became a god by following the laws and ordinances of the god on that world. He then supposedly brought one of his wives to this world and produced spirit children who then inhabit human bodies at birth. The first spirit child to be born was Jesus. Then Satan. (So Mormons believe they’re brothers, I guess).
None of this is in the Bible though. If it was truly important to God’s nature, wouldn’t he reveal it to us in the Bible? Not only is all of this not even found in the Bible, it’s contradicted by the Bible. The Bible states that there is only one God (see Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5), that God has eternally been God ( according to Psalm 90:2). If the Bible is true, which you claim it is, how could God be a man on another planet, too? Since the Bible denies the existence of other gods (and goddesses), the idea that Jesus is the product of a god and goddess couple doesn’t float. So, again, the Jesus of Christianity and the Jesus of Mormonism are very different.

Another big difference is the issue of salvation. Mormonism teaches that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, and then us receiving the work of the cross by faith, isn’t enough to bring forgiveness of our sins. Mormons believe we must be good and follow the laws and ordinances of their church to obtain forgiveness. This goes against the Bible though when it says forgiveness comes to us by Grace through faith (see Romans 5:1; 6:23; and Ephesians 2:8-9) and the doctrine that works are not part of our salvation, but a result of a saving faith (check out Romans 4:5, then James 2:14-18).
Then Mormonism says salvation isn’t just forgiveness of sins, but a universal resurrection. So Mormons speak of salvation by grace, but are usually talking about a universal resurrection. The Bible, however, speaks of salvation as the forgiveness of sins, not just a universal resurrection.

So, Mormonism is not Christian because it denies there is only one God, denies the true Gospel, adds works to salvation and denies Christ’s eternal nature, among other things.
In saying this stuff, I’m not denying that Mormons are good people, that they help their people, that their faith appears to be like Christianity or that they aren’t sincere about their faith. That doesn’t make Mormons Christian though. Christ himself acknowledged there would be those who sincerely believe they’re following him, but they’re sincerely wrong.
Matthew 7:21-23 says “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”
Becoming a follower of Christ doesn’t mean you belong to a specific church, do good things or simply believe in God. It means you’ve trusted in the true Jesus for your salvation, not the brother of the devil, one of many gods or the gospel of Mormonism.
That, in part, was why I brought up earlier what the Bible says in Galatians 1:9 “As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!”
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Old 12-10-2006, 05:50 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
I think all theological questions about the LDS faith and Christ's Gospel contained in the LDS church could and should be discussed in this thread:

http://forum.interference.com/showth...n&pagenumber=1
I'm fine with that, but as it's been said in the media before, Romney's going to have to come clean about what his faith believes because it's certianly going to be an issue.

That's a good thing about him running -- it'll lead to discussions of Mormonism.
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Old 12-10-2006, 07:50 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen



To answer your question, macphisto23, I'll again point to the Trinity. If you see Jesus as one of many gods and I see him as THE God, then we see him differently, right? The Bible is very clear -- Old Testament and New Testament -- that "there is but one God." Jesus himself not only believed this, he claimed he is it. He is this truth. If you follow him, shouldn't you know his nature? Shouldn't you acknowledge who he says he is?
Mormonism not only teaches that God is one of many gods, it also teaches that God used to be a man on another planet, and that he became a god by following the laws and ordinances of the god on that world. He then supposedly brought one of his wives to this world and produced spirit children who then inhabit human bodies at birth. The first spirit child to be born was Jesus. Then Satan. (So Mormons believe they’re brothers, I guess).
None of this is in the Bible though. If it was truly important to God’s nature, wouldn’t he reveal it to us in the Bible? Not only is all of this not even found in the Bible, it’s contradicted by the Bible. The Bible states that there is only one God (see Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5), that God has eternally been God ( according to Psalm 90:2). If the Bible is true, which you claim it is, how could God be a man on another planet, too? Since the Bible denies the existence of other gods (and goddesses), the idea that Jesus is the product of a god and goddess couple doesn’t float. So, again, the Jesus of Christianity and the Jesus of Mormonism are very different.

Diamond sorry, this is my last post here

Coemgan, please cite where you get our doctrine from, as alot of what you write is highly inacurate.

To my knowledge people really mean, I have found, when they say that Mormons aren't Christian, is that Mormons don't believe exactly the same things that the accuser believes. Your statement requires the use of a very peculiar definition of Christian not supported by the dictionary or by the Bible.

Lets sort out this trinity mess...

We are Christian because we look to Christ for salvation and worship Him and the Father. We are not saved by our works, but through the grace of Christ We believe in God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost as the members of the Godhead, being one in purpose, heart, and intent.Although I may disagree with the theology of some other Christians, that gives me no right to say that they are not Christians because they don't see things the way I do. If someone looks to Christ for salvation and seeks to follow Him, in my mind, that's enough to qualify as being a Christian, regardless of other theological differences.

Latter-day Saints believe in God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, and believe that they are one in purpose and one in heart, but not one in substance. Recall the great prayer of Christ in John 17. Christ prayed that His followers "all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me; that they also may be one in us." In verse 22, He again prayed "that they may be one, even as we are one." In my view, this kind of oneness is a unity of purpose, intent, and heart, not a blending of substance into one being. When Christ prayed (many times) to His Father in Heaven, we believe that He was doing exactly that - communicating with His Father.

In Luke 24 Christ shows himself to his disciples as a resurected being. They first think it is a spirit, but Christ asks them to feel his tangible body, "handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." To drive the point home, he then asks for some food, and eats it in front of them. We actually believe that this happened and was a real event, not a dream or a metaphor. we believe in a literal resurrection and believe that Christ is a resurrected Being with a tangible body, exactly as He showed us in Luke 24. And Christ, in the image of God, said in John 14:9 that "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" - which I interpret as meaning that Christ looks like the Father.

All this means, of course, that we believe God and Christ to be one Godhead (with the Holy Ghost), perfectly one in purpose, yet not one in substance. Stephen saw God and Jesus, two disting beings. Joseph Smith, I know you don't believe him, or that he was a latter day prophet, but he saw Jesus and God, as two seperate beings.

The distinctness of the three Beings in the Godhead is evident in Matthew 3:13-17, in which Christ is baptized. In this event, Christ is in the water, the Holy Ghost is descending in the form of a dove, and the Father speaks from heaven saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Likewise, the many times that Christ went off to pray to the Father in private would be confusing, in my opinion, if Christ were the same substance and Being as the Father. In my reading of the Bible, they are distinct. Though there are distinct Beings, there is only one Godhead and only one source of salvation. Through their unity, to worship Christ is to worship the Father. In general, we worship and pray to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ, though Christ represents the Father and is one with Him.

The implication to me is that distinct beings have distinct roles, allowing one to be the head, but in each case there is or should be unity. Indeed, the husband and wife should be "one flesh" according to the scriptures, believers and Christ should be one just as Christ and God are one, but this unity does not imply that there is only one Being having three roles or manifestations or even "persons" of one substance. God is the Father, Christ is the Son, yet he represents the Father and is God Himself, part of the united Godhead. It is appropriate to call Christ the Everlasting Father, not only because of His unity with God but because of His role as Creator, as described in Heb. 1:1-3 and Col. 1:15-18, and as Author of our salvation.

Of course you don't have to believe any of this, Feel free to charge us with being overly literal. But don't say we are not Christians just because we don't interpret the Bible the same way you do.







Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen



Another big difference is the issue of salvation. Mormonism teaches that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, and then us receiving the work of the cross by faith, isn’t enough to bring forgiveness of our sins. Mormons believe we must be good and follow the laws and ordinances of their church to obtain forgiveness. This goes against the Bible though when it says forgiveness comes to us by Grace through faith (see Romans 5:1; 6:23; and Ephesians 2:8-9) and the doctrine that works are not part of our salvation, but a result of a saving faith (check out Romans 4:5, then James 2:14-18).
Then Mormonism says salvation isn’t just forgiveness of sins, but a universal resurrection. So Mormons speak of salvation by grace, but are usually talking about a universal resurrection. The Bible, however, speaks of salvation as the forgiveness of sins, not just a universal resurrection.

Everything that Christ offers us is through grace and not through our merits. That includes resurrection (salvation from physical death), which all will receive (I Cor. 15:20-22), and "eternal life" (salvation from spiritual death - the death caused by sin, the death that is equivalent to being cut off from the presence of God), which few find (Matt. 7:14) (2 Pet. 1:4,5) (Rom. 8:14-18). This wonderful blessing is made possible through His grace, not by our works. We gain access to his grace through faith (Rom. 5:2) (see Rom. 5:2-6; 2 Peter 1:3-10). Our faith and obedience does not earn salvation, but provides access to the gift. God says in Rev. 22:14, "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the (heavenly) city." It's not doing the commandments that earns that heavenly reward, but it is an important part for us to receive the gift that no man could ever earn.

Salvation is only possible because the Atonement of Christ allows us to repent of our sins and be cleansed, to become purified even to the point of being like Him in some sense (1 John 3:2) and receiving a glorious resurrected body like His (Phil. 3:12, I Cor. 15:40-43). Eternal life is offered to us through grace - but it is conditional, as are all God's covenants. It depends upon our accepting the terms upon which it is offered. Being conditional does not make it no longer by grace, but we need to receive that grace and follow Christ, as He commands us.

To me, the Biblical teachings on this are very hard to miss. Almost everything Christ taught was about the need to change our behavior, to get on the straight path, to obey his teachings, to forsake sin and temptation, and salvation was "conditional" upon this - not "once confessed, always saved". Twice He was asked what we must do to be have "eternal life", and both times he answered that we must keep the commandments. He warned that even the elect could be deceived, but that those that endure to the end will be saved. His parable of the goats and sheep in Matt. 25:31-46 makes it clear who will have eternal life: those "righteous" that follow Him in loving and serving and blessing others. Over and over this is taught, yet the LDS Church is condemned an non-Christian and even Satanic for teaching the same doctrine that Christ preached, a doctrine which also taught the necessity of baptism (John 3:3-5) and repentance (Matt. 4:17).


[QUOTE]Originally posted by coemgen
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Old 12-10-2006, 08:59 PM   #171
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The God I believe in isn't short of GRACE. I would bet God could care less about the trinity and more about loving each other.
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Old 12-10-2006, 10:26 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
The God I believe in isn't short of GRACE. I would bet God could care less about the trinity and more about loving each other.
agreed.

and nice post macphisto23.

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Old 12-11-2006, 03:29 AM   #173
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Well, this is why I was trying to redirect the thread into a discussion about Romney as a politician...the original thread question pretty much invites the above tangent by asking whether or not Romney's religious beliefs specifically might influence one's vote. If the answer is Yes, than naturally that will tend to lead to discussion of why, which among other reasons could include the argument that coemgen is suggesting some evangelical voters might make.

At the same time, I am not surprised that there's little enthusiasm left for discussing Romney's actual policies...

I give up.
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Old 12-11-2006, 11:14 AM   #174
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by macphisto23
[B]
Diamond sorry, this is my last post here

Coemgan, please cite where you get our doctrine from, as alot of what you write is highly inacurate.

To my knowledge people really mean, I have found, when they say that Mormons aren't Christian, is that Mormons don't believe exactly the same things that the accuser believes. Your statement requires the use of a very peculiar definition of Christian not supported by the dictionary or by the Bible.

Lets sort out this trinity mess...

We are Christian because we look to Christ for salvation and worship Him and the Father. We are not saved by our works, but through the grace of Christ We believe in God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost as the members of the Godhead, being one in purpose, heart, and intent.Although I may disagree with the theology of some other Christians, that gives me no right to say that they are not Christians because they don't see things the way I do. If someone looks to Christ for salvation and seeks to follow Him, in my mind, that's enough to qualify as being a Christian, regardless of other theological differences.

Latter-day Saints believe in God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, and believe that they are one in purpose and one in heart, but not one in substance. Recall the great prayer of Christ in John 17. Christ prayed that His followers "all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me; that they also may be one in us." In verse 22, He again prayed "that they may be one, even as we are one." In my view, this kind of oneness is a unity of purpose, intent, and heart, not a blending of substance into one being. When Christ prayed (many times) to His Father in Heaven, we believe that He was doing exactly that - communicating with His Father.

In Luke 24 Christ shows himself to his disciples as a resurected being. They first think it is a spirit, but Christ asks them to feel his tangible body, "handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." To drive the point home, he then asks for some food, and eats it in front of them. We actually believe that this happened and was a real event, not a dream or a metaphor. we believe in a literal resurrection and believe that Christ is a resurrected Being with a tangible body, exactly as He showed us in Luke 24. And Christ, in the image of God, said in John 14:9 that "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" - which I interpret as meaning that Christ looks like the Father.

All this means, of course, that we believe God and Christ to be one Godhead (with the Holy Ghost), perfectly one in purpose, yet not one in substance. Stephen saw God and Jesus, two disting beings. Joseph Smith, I know you don't believe him, or that he was a latter day prophet, but he saw Jesus and God, as two seperate beings.

The distinctness of the three Beings in the Godhead is evident in Matthew 3:13-17, in which Christ is baptized. In this event, Christ is in the water, the Holy Ghost is descending in the form of a dove, and the Father speaks from heaven saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Likewise, the many times that Christ went off to pray to the Father in private would be confusing, in my opinion, if Christ were the same substance and Being as the Father. In my reading of the Bible, they are distinct. Though there are distinct Beings, there is only one Godhead and only one source of salvation. Through their unity, to worship Christ is to worship the Father. In general, we worship and pray to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ, though Christ represents the Father and is one with Him.

The implication to me is that distinct beings have distinct roles, allowing one to be the head, but in each case there is or should be unity. Indeed, the husband and wife should be "one flesh" according to the scriptures, believers and Christ should be one just as Christ and God are one, but this unity does not imply that there is only one Being having three roles or manifestations or even "persons" of one substance. God is the Father, Christ is the Son, yet he represents the Father and is God Himself, part of the united Godhead. It is appropriate to call Christ the Everlasting Father, not only because of His unity with God but because of His role as Creator, as described in Heb. 1:1-3 and Col. 1:15-18, and as Author of our salvation.

Of course you don't have to believe any of this, Feel free to charge us with being overly literal. But don't say we are not Christians just because we don't interpret the Bible the same way you do.

Everything that Christ offers us is through grace and not through our merits. That includes resurrection (salvation from physical death), which all will receive (I Cor. 15:20-22), and "eternal life" (salvation from spiritual death - the death caused by sin, the death that is equivalent to being cut off from the presence of God), which few find (Matt. 7:14) (2 Pet. 1:4,5) (Rom. 8:14-18). This wonderful blessing is made possible through His grace, not by our works. We gain access to his grace through faith (Rom. 5:2) (see Rom. 5:2-6; 2 Peter 1:3-10). Our faith and obedience does not earn salvation, but provides access to the gift. God says in Rev. 22:14, "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the (heavenly) city." It's not doing the commandments that earns that heavenly reward, but it is an important part for us to receive the gift that no man could ever earn.

Salvation is only possible because the Atonement of Christ allows us to repent of our sins and be cleansed, to become purified even to the point of being like Him in some sense (1 John 3:2) and receiving a glorious resurrected body like His (Phil. 3:12, I Cor. 15:40-43). Eternal life is offered to us through grace - but it is conditional, as are all God's covenants. It depends upon our accepting the terms upon which it is offered. Being conditional does not make it no longer by grace, but we need to receive that grace and follow Christ, as He commands us.

To me, the Biblical teachings on this are very hard to miss. Almost everything Christ taught was about the need to change our behavior, to get on the straight path, to obey his teachings, to forsake sin and temptation, and salvation was "conditional" upon this - not "once confessed, always saved". Twice He was asked what we must do to be have "eternal life", and both times he answered that we must keep the commandments. He warned that even the elect could be deceived, but that those that endure to the end will be saved. His parable of the goats and sheep in Matt. 25:31-46 makes it clear who will have eternal life: those "righteous" that follow Him in loving and serving and blessing others. Over and over this is taught, yet the LDS Church is condemned an non-Christian and even Satanic for teaching the same doctrine that Christ preached, a doctrine which also taught the necessity of baptism (John 3:3-5) and repentance (Matt. 4:17).


Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
OK, I don't have time now to respond to all of this because I'm on my way into work. I do want to get to all of it though.

I have to say this -- the 8th article of faith from the Mormon church states, "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly." Does this mean when the Bible contradicts Mormonism, it isn't trustworthy? Who decides if the translation is right?

My point is, what you're saying about the trinity above, is purely a translation, and not one that jives with the rest of scripture. Again, how do you reconcile verses such as those that say "There is but ONE God" when your faith believes in many?
Plus, the picture of the Trinity at the time of Christ's baptism does NOT prove they are three different beings. It is, in fact, a time when all three persons of God came together in a relational way. That's the thing I don't understand. The holy SPIRIT is the SPIRIT of God. Christ is God in the Flesh. God the Father is in heaven. They're relational differences, not three different beings. Go back to the verses you cited and look at them through this lens. It matches up AND it matches up with there "being but ONE God."
Christ saying if you have seen me, you've seen the Father -- he's saying he's God! That's it. Christ praying to God -- you have to remember that Christ was fully God and fully human. He never chose to override his humanness with the fact he's God.

And as far as salvation goes, you do believe we have to follow the laws and ordinances of the Mormon church to be forgiven.
Your James Talmage once said "The sectarian dogma of justification by faith alone has exercised an influence for evil," (Articles, p. 432), and "Hence the justice of the scriptural doctrine that salvation comes to the individual only through obedience," (Articles, p. 81).
However, the Bible says faith alone is enough. Again, how do you reconcile the differences?
And again, you have yet to fully respond to Galatians 1:9
As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!"

Here's the full section in Galatians that talks about preaching a different Gospel, which your faith clearly does. And remember, this is Scripture, not me. Galatians 1:6-10 shows that similar cults popped up in the early days of the church, too.

No Other Gospel
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
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Old 12-11-2006, 11:53 PM   #175
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


OK, I don't have time now to respond to all of this because I'm on my way into work. I do want to get to all of it though.

I have to say this -- the 8th article of faith from the Mormon church states, "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly." Does this mean when the Bible contradicts Mormonism, it isn't trustworthy? Who decides if the translation is right?

We don't believe in Mormonism, we believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Bible doesn't contradict The Gospel of Jesus Christ (Mormonism). Every Bible-believing Christian church, whether Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Evangelical, or Latter-day Saint, interprets the biblical text differently. In interpreting the Bible, some churches rely heavily on tradition; others draw on logic, semantics, philosophy, theory, or history.We believe in Latter Day prophets called by God(that's insane isn't it), they recieve Revelation. they interpret the Bible with The Holy Ghost and have the Spirit of Prophecy.

Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


My point is, what you're saying about the trinity above, is purely a translation, and not one that jives with the rest of scripture. Again, how do you reconcile verses such as those that say "There is but ONE God" when your faith believes in many?
Plus, the picture of the Trinity at the time of Christ's baptism does NOT prove they are three different beings. It is, in fact, a time when all three persons of God came together in a relational way. That's the thing I don't understand. The holy SPIRIT is the SPIRIT of God. Christ is God in the Flesh. God the Father is in heaven. They're relational differences, not three different beings. Go back to the verses you cited and look at them through this lens. It matches up AND it matches up with there "being but ONE God."
Christ saying if you have seen me, you've seen the Father -- he's saying he's God! That's it. Christ praying to God -- you have to remember that Christ was fully God and fully human. He never chose to override his humanness with the fact he's God.

And as far as salvation goes, you do believe we have to follow the laws and ordinances of the Mormon church to be forgiven.
Your James Talmage once said "The sectarian dogma of justification by faith alone has exercised an influence for evil," (Articles, p. 432), and "Hence the justice of the scriptural doctrine that salvation comes to the individual only through obedience," (Articles, p. 81).
However, the Bible says faith alone is enough. Again, how do you reconcile the differences?
And again, you have yet to fully respond to Galatians 1:9
As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!"

Here's the full section in Galatians that talks about preaching a different Gospel, which your faith clearly does. And remember, this is Scripture, not me. Galatians 1:6-10 shows that similar cults popped up in the early days of the church, too.

No Other Gospel
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

The trinity again........ I advise you to reread my earlier post, and again, understand that we interpret the Bible differently. Thats why there are so many Christian church breakoffs, as you already know, there are many differences in interpreting the Bible. You won't respect our interpretation, so you are right and we are wrong.

Your Galatians argument, I can use the same on you.

We need Faith in Christ to recieve his Grace, and Faith needs works "2:17- Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." You can reread my earlier post and maybe understand it better.

Coegman it was fun, but it's obvious you really, really don't want to accept that we are Christians, so I leave you with this, and this is my last post.


Is the LDS Church a Cult?
One of the most repeated accusations made by critics of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that we are a "cult." When you hear this accusation, please ask precisely what is meant by the frightening term "cult." The use of that word is not really meant to explain anything about the Church or its positions, but is meant to end discussion and investigation with scare tactics. "A cult? Oh no!"
The primary definition for "cult" in many dictionaries is synonymous with "religious organization." Yes, I suppose that definition fits. However, anti-Mormons would not sell many books and pamphlets if they had titles like, "Mormonism is a Religious Organization: Find Out Why!" or "Lure of the Religious Organizations!" According to the dictionary, "cult" can also mean a group that pays special devotion to some individual. Yes, we are also guilty of that, and that individual is the Lord Jesus Christ. But recently, contrary to its original generic meaning, the word "cult" in popular use carries frightening overtones. It evokes images of suicidal, comet-chasing groups, physically abusive regimens, corrupt tyrants and Satanic rituals. Clearly there are some odd beliefs and groups in the world - but every religion can seem odd or even extreme to those who do not understand it.

--- the rest can be found here---
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_cult.shtml
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Old 12-12-2006, 02:35 AM   #176
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It's funny you mention all the above forms of Christianity and the Mormonism. You can't do that. Mormonism doesn't believe in essential Christian doctrine, such as the Trinity! One of the first signs of a cult is a religion that says it respects the Bible, yet ignores the obvious nature of the Trinity and the bold statements in the Bible of there being ONE God. Again, how do you reconcile the Bible's clear statements about there being ONE God?

I already quoted the text of James referring to faith without works being dead. That doesn't mean you're saved by the works, it means a saving faith must include works. The criminal that died next to Jesus on the cross was accepted by faith alone -- explain that? Explain Paul and Timothy's mentions of salvation through faith alone -- how do you reconcile that with your interpretation of James?

And I'll say it once again -- how do you reconcile Galatians 1:9? (BTW, I've never heard a Mormon give a sufficient answer to this.)

Yes, the LDS church is a cult. It's a counterfiet of Christianity that that twists the Bible to fit its own interpretations and ignores essential truths of the Christian faith.

Again, there are Mormons who are great people. They do nice things and live a clean life. I have a high respect for you guys as people. But, after looking closely at Mormonism and Christianity, it's easy to see they contradict each other severely. There are many other ways in which this is the case that haven't been brought up -- i.e. baptising the dead -- another clear misinterpretation of the Bible.

I've enjoyed our discussion, macphisto23. Hopefully we can talk in other threads that are less serious and know more about each other that way, too.

God bless,

coemgen
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Old 12-12-2006, 05:27 AM   #177
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So, um, about that Mitt Romney guy.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/pol..._spoke_of.html

I think that just about ends his candidacy.
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Old 12-12-2006, 05:27 AM   #178
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1- Coegman did you read my post on the trinity? Because if you did then you would understand that we do believe in the "Essential Christian Doctrine, ONE God, The Trinity".

2- A rich young ruler came running to the Lord and asked, "Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" What did Jesus tell him, believe only? No, but He said to him, "You know the commandments: "Do not commit adultery,' "Do not murder,' "Do not steal,' "Do not bear false witness,' "Do not defraud,' "Honor your father and your mother"" (Mark 10:17-19). In like manner, we must be obedient also in order to inherit eternal life.

Please tell me why Jesus did not tell this man that faith alone will save him?

Were not trying to work are way into heaven, it is a combination of Faith, Grace, and Works.
Faith in Christ, Obey and Follow his Commandments, and with Faith and Works we recieve the Grace of Christ.

3- Galatians 1:6-9 - Do you understad the context?
We believe that we teach the same gospel as did Christ and The Apostles. Have you heard of the Apostasy?


4- You really want to get the message across that Mormons are a cult! I've tried to supply you with valid information that states otherwise, and I could supply you with endless information, but it is all in vain, because no matter what, your mind is already made up.
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Old 12-12-2006, 12:02 PM   #179
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1. macphisto23, you do not believe in ONE God — what are you talking about? You believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirt as three seperate beings -- three different gods. You also believe you and I can become a god. Once again, you have yet to reconcile any of this with the Bible's clear statement that there is "but ONE God."

2.Wow. I'm sorry, but your No. 2 point there is a clear and glaring example of how Mormons take certain verses to fit their belief system. You should read the verses AROUND it and include ALL of the verse, not just the parts you like.
You completely left out the part where Christ said "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. He then tells the person "You know the commandments" and lists them. The person responds "I've kept them since I was a boy." Jesus then said "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." He's telling the person that keeping the commandments ISN'T what it's about. Even if he's kept them "No one is good —*except God alone." Therefore this guy isn't good, despite his keeping of the commandments! (Good meaning righteous, or right with God). The one thing he is lacking -- the thing that would make him "good" or "right with God" is simply following Christ.

So, in reality, after a look at the context of the whole story of "The Rich Young Man" and the ENTIRE verse that you tried to quote, the actual meaning is the complete opposite of what you were getting at. This stuff is done regularly by Mormons. I'm not saying that to bash, I'm saying it as a fact. This fits the definition of a cult. Not my definition, but a general definition.

3. But you're NOT preaching the same Gospel. Your Jesus is different and your path to salvation is different. How do you reconcile that?

4. Yes. My mind is already made up. I think the points I've made above and before, as well as points you've made, are sufficient for seeing this. Don't you see it? Seriously, and I say this with all due respect — I urge you to look at it deeper. How do you reconcile all these differences and contradictions?
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Old 12-12-2006, 06:54 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
1. macphisto23, you do not believe in ONE God — what are you talking about? You believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirt as three seperate beings -- three different gods. You also believe you and I can become a god. Once again, you have yet to reconcile any of this with the Bible's clear statement that there is "but ONE God."

2.Wow. I'm sorry, but your No. 2 point there is a clear and glaring example of how Mormons take certain verses to fit their belief system. You should read the verses AROUND it and include ALL of the verse, not just the parts you like.
You completely left out the part where Christ said "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. He then tells the person "You know the commandments" and lists them. The person responds "I've kept them since I was a boy." Jesus then said "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." He's telling the person that keeping the commandments ISN'T what it's about. Even if he's kept them "No one is good —*except God alone." Therefore this guy isn't good, despite his keeping of the commandments! (Good meaning righteous, or right with God). The one thing he is lacking -- the thing that would make him "good" or "right with God" is simply following Christ.

So, in reality, after a look at the context of the whole story of "The Rich Young Man" and the ENTIRE verse that you tried to quote, the actual meaning is the complete opposite of what you were getting at. This stuff is done regularly by Mormons. I'm not saying that to bash, I'm saying it as a fact. This fits the definition of a cult. Not my definition, but a general definition.

3. But you're NOT preaching the same Gospel. Your Jesus is different and your path to salvation is different. How do you reconcile that?

4. Yes. My mind is already made up. I think the points I've made above and before, as well as points you've made, are sufficient for seeing this. Don't you see it? Seriously, and I say this with all due respect — I urge you to look at it deeper. How do you reconcile all these differences and contradictions?
1- Ha Ha, coegman please reread my post on the trinity, and understand our interpretation of "ONE" God. We believe in God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, and believe that they are "ONE" in purpose and "ONE" in heart, but not "ONE" in substance, as you believe. But our interpretation is wrong and yours is right??? ofcourse

2- I'm sorry but our interpretation is exactly in line with the Bible
Mathew 19
16- He asked "what do I have to do to have eternal life"?
17-Jesus sais " there is none good but one, that is God(or Heavenly Father, but why would Jesus talk about himself like that?)" he continues " if thou wilt enter into life, "Keep the Commandments"
18, 19 - Which Commandments do I have to keep? Jesus lists all of them
20- Young Man says he has kept all of them since he was young, "WHAT LACK I YET". He's asking Jesus, what else do I have to do aside from keeping the commandments(works).
21- Jesus says " if thou will be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." Aside from keeping the commandments it is vital in life to follow Christ, follow his teachings, his commandments, be obedient to them.

I'll skip ahead

He required his disciples to follow his teachings and commandments
32- and said that they would be rejected at the judgment day if they did not do so.
33- He declared that "not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven,"
34- suggesting that confession of his name, while necessary, is insufficient for salvation.


So, in reality, after a look at the context of the whole story of "The Rich Young Man" and the ENTIRE verse that you tried to quote, the actual meaning is the complete opposite of what you were getting at.

The confusion over grace results principally from the writings of the apostle Paul. But if Paul really taught that grace alone was sufficient for salvation, we have to consider a number of questions-

Why did Paul write so often to Christian congregations admonishing them to abandon their sinful ways?
Why did Paul have to tell believing Christians that those who committed various sins could not be saved in the kingdom of God?
Why did Paul teach that Christ is "the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe?"
Why did Paul say that "godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation?"
Why did Paul tell the Philippians to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling?"
When discussing "the grace of God that bringeth salvation," why does Paul say that it teaches "that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world?"
Why does the epistle to the Hebrews say that Jesus was "the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him?"
Each of these passages suggests that grace alone is not sufficient for salvation. Consequently, when reading the epistles of Paul, one must keep a much broader picture in mind. For example, Paul told the Romans,

18-That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

From this passage, it is clear that grace alone is insufficient and that it must be coupled at least with faith and with one act, confession.

In several of his epistles, Paul wrote that salvation came by grace, not works. For example, he wrote of Christ "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."
19- He told the Romans that "if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
20- He asked his readers, "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Was Paul teaching that good works were not the basis of salvation? If so, how are we to understand passages like Revelation 20:12-13, which say that God will judge men "according to their works"? The answer lies within Paul's epistles to the Romans and the Galatians, in which he clearly explained what he means by "works." He declared that "Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because (they sought it) not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone."

3- We believe in the Jesus from the Bible, I don't know what Jesus you believe in?

4- I urge you to look deeper
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