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Old 12-11-2007, 12:58 PM   #91
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And? Tell me if I'm wrong Irvine (or anyone else), but we still don't know all there is to know about AIDS, right? We still don't have a cure for AIDS, right? 15+ years later.

Again, I don't think this was a move to isolate all gay people and remove them from society. I really don't. Hopefully none of you do. I don't know the history of AIDS or the "timeline" of what was known about it. I probably wouldn't have said what Huckabee said, but I'm certainly not going to hold it against him. Apparently I'm alone in that here.
You don't sound very educated on the history of AIDS or even how it spreads, and it's 2007.

The rest of educated society had a pretty good grasp on how it spread in 1992, and we definately do now(at least most of us),no we don't have a cure, but we know you can't get it from a sneeze.

And I'm sure why you keep bringing up the "isolate all gay people", you do know that AIDS isn't a gay disease and that not all gay people have AIDS, please tell me you at least know this.

You and Huck need to do some research.
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:07 PM   #92
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You don't sound very educated on the history of AIDS or even how it spreads, and it's 2007.
Maybe I'm not. But I'm not claiming to be. All I'm saying is I'm giving Huckabee the benefit of the doubt.


Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
And I'm sure why you keep bringing up the "isolate all gay people", you do know that AIDS isn't a gay disease and that not all gay people have AIDS, please tell me you at least know this.
Yes, I'm fully aware you can't get AIDS from a sneeze or a handshake and yes, I'm fully aware not all gay people have AIDS and not all AIDS victims are gay. The reason I mentioned gay people specifically was because I get the impression that some people in here are turning this into a "gay" issue, not a "potentially deadly disease" issue.
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:23 PM   #93
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Originally posted by 2861U2
The reason I mentioned gay people specifically was because I get the impression that some people in here are turning this into a "gay" issue, not a "potentially deadly disease" issue.


and this is what's really interesting.

AIDS is quite obviously not a gay disease in a worldwide context, and though it was in the beginning in the US and Europe, now straight people make up the majority of new HIV infections, and the most at-risk group are straight african-americans.

however, in 1992, it was seen as a "gay disease," and it was a wonderfully effective way for the socially conservative right to view AIDS as some sort of punishment for a "sinful" lifestyle. there was a horrible t-shirt that was popular in some corners that read: "AIDS is killing the right people." i remember Sebastian Bach getting in trouble for wearing a t-shirt that read "AIDS Kills Fags Dead."

so while AIDS has never been solely a gay disease, it has disproportionately affected the gay community (for a long, long list of reasons, many of which are quite complex), and it has thusly been used as "evidence" that there's something wrong with being gay. further, it becomes quite easy to point at a despised segment of the population and call for "isolation" when (you don't think) it's going to be anyone who'd either, a) vote for you, or b) you don't regard as totally human.

like i said, if it were soccer moms getting HIV, you'd never, ever have a senate candidate from AR calling for "isolation."

these days, people are saying that there was too much "P.C." surrounding the early years of the AIDS crisis, and had there been quarantining of some sort in the very early 80s, perhaps the spread could have been stopped. that's something we'll never know. but it's hard not to backlash when you're already a highly discriminated against (especially back then) minority group. how do you not read more into this than what might already be there? but ultimately, it's the dormant stage of the virus that makes it so potent. you don't get sick right away. most people will come down with something akin to a flu right after seroconversion, but people can have HIV and not know it for years and years, and this makes it so easy to spread, and this is why in addition to the spread of safer sex practices i think HIV testing should be part of a routine doctor's visit. once people know they have the virus, most people are very responsible for their health and for the health of others, and once someone is on medications, their ability to infect others is greatly reduced.
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:29 PM   #94
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Originally posted by Irvine511


however, in 1992, it was seen as a "gay disease," and it was a wonderfully effective way for the socially conservative right to view AIDS as some sort of punishment for a "sinful" lifestyle.
Well I certainly don't condone that at all, and anyone who thinks that way doesn't speak for me. I'm sorry, I just don't think that was Huckabee's objective, though.

Thanks for the post, Irvine. It was interesting.
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:34 PM   #95
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Maybe I'm not. But I'm not claiming to be. All I'm saying is I'm giving Huckabee the benefit of the doubt.
What benefit of the doubt are you giving him? He made the comment in 92 and then he stood by that statement in 2007. In 2007 he thinks it was a good idea to isolate AIDS victims. This ignorance isn't presidential material.
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:37 PM   #96
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are some of us badgering the witness?
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:38 PM   #97
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


What benefit of the doubt are you giving him? He made the comment in 92 and then he stood by that statement in 2007. In 2007 he thinks it was a good idea to isolate AIDS victims. This ignorance isn't presidential material.
He isn't necessarily "standing by" his statement. Have you listened to what he said? He's stated he would have said it differently. He doesn't currently think AIDS victims should be isolated, and he isn't denying he ever said it, which is what many politicians do regarding stupid and/or controversial statements. What else do you want?
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:41 PM   #98
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I believe Irvine is correct, that's how it was in 1992. That's certainly how I remember it. AIDS will probably always be a "gay issue" merely because of the fact that some people used it to discriminate against gay people and some still do. For that reason it can never be just a health issue. Of course other people who have it who are not gay can also be discriminated against. Huckabee is accountable for his seeming refusal to refute what he said, why won't he just admit that it was morally wrong and not based in reality? What people thought back then and public ignorance/lack of information back then is no excuse for what he is saying and doing in 2007.


The Associated Press

DES MOINES, Iowa

Republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee's 15-year-old comments that AIDS patients should have been isolated have so alarmed the mother of Ryan White, an Indiana teenager whose life-ending battle with AIDS in the 1980s engrossed the nation, that she has asked for a meeting.

"I would be very willing to meet with them," the former Arkansas governor responded Tuesday while campaigning in western Iowa. "I would tell them we've come a long way in research, in treatment."

The GOP front-runner in Iowa's Jan. 3 caucuses stood by his 1992 comments in a broadcast interview Sunday, infuriating Jeanne White-Ginder, the late teen's mother and a board member of the AIDS Institute.

"It's so alarming to me," she said in a telephone interview Monday with The Associated Press from her home in Leesburg, Fla.

"It's very important to me that we don't live in the darkness" when people thought AIDS was transmitted through casual contact, such as by "kissing, tears, sweat and saliva," White-Ginder said. "We have to treat this disease like a disease, and like Ryan always said, not like a dirty word."

White was 13 when he was diagnosed with AIDS in December 1984, having contracted the disease from the blood-clotting agent used to treat his hemophilia. He was barred from school the following year out of fear the disease was spread casually. He died in 1990 at age 18.

On Tuesday, the Human Rights Campaign, a gay rights group, and the AIDS Institute sent a letter to Huckabee asking him to meet with White-Ginder who declined in the interview to say what political party she belongs to and calling his comments "completely beyond comprehension."

In response, Huckabee told reporters in Council Bluffs, Iowa: "I certainly never would want to say anything that would be hurtful to them or anyone else. I would have great regret and anxiety if I thought my comments were hurtful or in any way added to the already incredible pain that families have felt regardless of how they contracted AIDS."

Once an underdog, the candidate has come under increased scrutiny as he has soared to the front-running position in the important Iowa caucuses and elsewhere over the past few weeks. He's faced criticism, in particular, for his comments on AIDS, and his records on parole, taxes and immigration in his decade as governor, and those issues were all but certain to be raised at a GOP debate in Iowa on Wednesday.

He said he expected more criticism to come.

"That's part of the way we unfortunately do politics in America," Huckabee said. "When you're a governor for ten and half years you make thousands of decisions every year. In office that long, you're going to have a lot of decisions people can pore through."
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:43 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2


He isn't necessarily "standing by" his statement. Have you listened to what he said? He's stated he would have said it differently. He doesn't currently think AIDS victims should be isolated, and he isn't denying he ever said it, which is what many politicians do regarding stupid and/or controversial statements. What else do you want?
This is what he said. How is that not standing by it? He would state it differently-that's a vague and open ended statement.

'I still believe this today,'' he said in a broadcast interview, that ''we were acting more out of political correctness'' in responding to the AIDS crisis. ''I don't run from it, I don't recant it,'' he said of his position in 1992. Yet he said he would state his view differently in retrospect.
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:44 PM   #100
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Originally posted by 2861U2


He isn't necessarily "standing by" his statement. Have you listened to what he said? He's stated he would have said it differently. He doesn't currently think AIDS victims should be isolated, and he isn't denying he ever said it, which is what many politicians do regarding stupid and/or controversial statements. What else do you want?
What else do I want? For him to say, "I was ignorant, I'm sorry."

But he said this instead:

Quote:
''I still believe this today,'' he said in a broadcast interview, that ''we were acting more out of political correctness'' in responding to the AIDS crisis. ''I don't run from it, I don't recant it,'' he said of his position in 1992. Yet he said he would state his view differently in retrospect.
"I still believe this today" that's not standing by his statement?

Wording it different wouldn't have made any difference in the world.
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:47 PM   #101
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he isn't denying he ever said it, which is what many politicians do regarding stupid and/or controversial statements.
this is true

and he does deserve credit for not flip / flopping about his 1992 remarks

he also was speaking during an Arkansas campaign and those remarks were not out of step with that constituency

2861u2, I realize you were probably 3-4 years old in 1992

I was 37, and those beliefs were not universally believed by well informed people at the time

but, in Arkansas?
it probably went over just fine.
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:00 PM   #102
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Originally posted by 2861U2


He isn't necessarily "standing by" his statement. Have you listened to what he said? He's stated he would have said it differently. He doesn't currently think AIDS victims should be isolated, and he isn't denying he ever said it, which is what many politicians do regarding stupid and/or controversial statements. What else do you want?

i want him to say something nice and compassionate about people who contracted the disease, even it if it was through homosexual sex, and i want him to say that if he were president he'd repeal the ban against HIV positive immigrants getting citizenship and i want him to recount his previous offensive comments about gay people ("sinful lifestyle") and actually become the compassionate Christian he says he is and join the rest of the civilized world.
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:13 PM   #103
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i want him to say something nice and compassionate about people who contracted the disease, even it if it was through homosexual sex, and i want him to say that if he were president he'd repeal the ban against HIV positive immigrants getting citizenship and i want him to recount his previous offensive comments about gay people ("sinful lifestyle") and actually become the compassionate Christian he says he is and join the rest of the civilized world.

Irvine

I believe everything you wrote is what any rational and fair person should believe and state.


But. I don't believe any of the GOP candidates would make that blanket statement. Not even Rudy, in this GOP primary campaign.



I believe that Huck has a chance (small) of getting the GOP nomination.

I also believe he would be very easy to beat in Nov 2008.
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:29 PM   #104
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I believe that Huck has a chance (small) of getting the GOP nomination.

I also believe he would be very easy to beat in Nov 2008.


the Democrats are already calling him an "easy kill."



but then again, they've never gone up against someone who Jesus has personally endorsed before.
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:32 PM   #105
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Irvine

I believe everything you wrote is what any rational and fair person should believe and state.


But. I don't believe any of the GOP candidates would make that blanket statement. Not even Rudy, in this GOP primary campaign.



I believe that Huck has a chance (small) of getting the GOP nomination.

I also believe he would be very easy to beat in Nov 2008.
Hell would freeze over if any of them said anything even remotely close to that.

And Irvine, one of the Dems have Oprah on their side. And we all know Oprah is bigger than Jesus.
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