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Old 12-28-2007, 03:17 PM   #436
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Originally posted by LemonMelon


I think one of the places you're getting my point twisted is that at no point in this conversation did I ever claim I wish for fetus' to have the exact same rights that a full-grown child does, and I never even used the word "rights" until you did about a page back. I don't want to make it sound like I'm backpedaling or anything, but all I said (rather casually) was that a fetus has a general right to life.
But I think this is the point martha was making earlier - that proponents of pro-life never really consider anything much beyond the fact they want to restrict abortion. They have not thought out anything beyond that - not criminal sanctions for women who get abortions, not criminal sanctions for doctors or anyone helping them perform or obtain an abortion, what the right to life means, what rights a fetus should have, how those rights should be constitutionally protected, etc. None of it.

It's easy to take a position without actually having a single, workable idea of how to carry it out.
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:25 PM   #437
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But I think this is the point martha was making earlier - that proponents of pro-life never really consider anything much beyond the fact they want to restrict abortion. They have not thought out anything beyond that - not criminal sanctions for women who get abortions, not criminal sanctions for doctors or anyone helping them perform or obtain an abortion, what the right to life means, what rights a fetus should have, how those rights should be constitutionally protected, etc. None of it.

It's easy to take a position without actually having a single, workable idea of how to carry it out.
But again, you miss my question. I have tried my best to give an outline of my wishes (not completely filled in, but about as much as possible in a 1 hour internet conversation) concerning this issue, but you haven't really tried to do much more than pick at mine. Do you have a better way? It's not that I don't care for either side, I care for both...but compromise can look really ugly sometimes.

Of course, I know you're pro-choice, but there are many holes in (and frustration with) the current system we have, and we all know it. Otherwise, why would we even bother discussing this?
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:30 PM   #438
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Well, I think her point was the status quo is better than anything you or anyone else is putting out there as alternative. What are the "many holes?"
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:32 PM   #439
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What are the "many holes?"
The huge percentage of the country who either think the system needs tweaking or to be thrown out entirely and rebuilt, for one.
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:33 PM   #440
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Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon
Do you have a better way? It's not that I don't care for either side, I care for both...but compromise can look really ugly sometimes.

Of course, I know you're pro-choice, but there are many holes in (and frustration with) the current system we have, and we all know it. Otherwise, why would we even bother discussing this?
I am staunchly pro-choice during the first trimester and there is no compromising there for me at all. Any effort to criminalize abortion in this respect is unacceptable in my eyes.

Obviously the key is to minimize the number of abortions - I'm pretty sure everyone agrees with that. To me this entails comprehensive and mandatory sexual education in schools, from a young age. Abstinence classes are ridiculous and should be laughed out of town. To me it also entails ignoring the Catholic church and every other church which advocates against the use of condoms and birth control. This is particularly important in the third world where churches have much more power among local populations and governments often bend to their whims.

It entails requiring, as a matter of law, that every pharmacist issues out birth control or relinquishes his license. It should be a condition of licensing that you cannot impose your religious beliefs on patients and go against the wishes of their doctors. At the very least, the pharmacist should have an employee present, at all times, who has no issue dispensing such medications. It is irrelevant that they are running a private business; the fact they are licensed by the state and as such enjoy a competitive advantage means they should be subject to regulations.

It entails making birth control and condoms more readily available to youth and cheaper to obtain. There is no reason why young women should be paying $30+ per month for the pill.

It entails perhaps a national childcare system (of course you're in the US so there will be screams of socialism as is often the case), better support for single mothers whom we want to be raising all these cute fetuses, an infusion of cash into school boards with large percentages of single parents, free and comprehensive healthcare for all children, and many other proposals.

But even if all of those were implemented, abortion must stay legal in the first trimester. Period.
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:41 PM   #441
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


I am staunchly pro-choice during the first trimester and there is no compromising there for me at all. Any effort to criminalize abortion in this respect is unacceptable in my eyes.

Obviously the key is to minimize the number of abortions - I'm pretty sure everyone agrees with that. To me this entails comprehensive and mandatory sexual education in schools, from a young age. Abstinence classes are ridiculous and should be laughed out of town. To me it also entails ignoring the Catholic church and every other church which advocates against the use of condoms and birth control. This is particularly important in the third world where churches have much more power among local populations and governments often bend to their whims.

It entails requiring, as a matter of law, that every pharmacist issues out birth control or relinquishes his license. It should be a condition of licensing that you cannot impose your religious beliefs on patients and go against the wishes of their doctors. At the very least, the pharmacist should have an employee present, at all times, who has no issue dispensing such medications. It is irrelevant that they are running a private business; the fact they are licensed by the state and as such enjoy a competitive advantage means they should be subject to regulations.

It entails making birth control and condoms more readily available to youth and cheaper to obtain. There is no reason why young women should be paying $30+ per month for the pill.

It entails perhaps a national childcare system (of course you're in the US so there will be screams of socialism as is often the case), better support for single mothers whom we want to be raising all these cute fetuses, an infusion of cash into school boards with large percentages of single parents, free and comprehensive healthcare for all children, and many other proposals.

But even if all of those were implemented, abortion must stay legal in the first trimester. Period.
I agree with a large chunk of that, actually. I am fully, 100% in favor of birth control, and it's a hugely important (and realistic) factor in minimizing abortion on a large scale. The only question is what it would take to implement many of these ideas and how long of a wait it would be.
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:43 PM   #442
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Originally posted by LemonMelon
The huge percentage of the country who either think the system needs tweaking or to be thrown out entirely and rebuilt, for one.
How is that a hole in the system?
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:45 PM   #443
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Originally posted by LemonMelon


I agree with a large chunk of that, actually. I am fully, 100% in favor of birth control, and it's a hugely important (and realistic) factor in minimizing abortion on a large scale. The only question is what it would take to implement many of these ideas and how long of a wait it would be.
Well you could probably never implement most of those in the US.

But that doesn't mean we should be draconian and instead criminalize abortion.
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:54 PM   #444
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Originally posted by phillyfan26


How is that a hole in the system?
Holes are a reason to do some tweaking. While it may not, in and of itself, be a hole, it's certainly reason enough to do the necessary tweaking. You simply can't have the country torn in half over one issue. It should have been resolved to general satisfaction ages ago.
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:55 PM   #445
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But there's no way to do it other than the way we're doing it right now. How can we resolve something that's best solution is currently in place?
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Old 12-28-2007, 04:01 PM   #446
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But there's no way to do it other than the way we're doing it right now. How can we resolve something that's best solution is currently in place?
But that's the thing. The majority believe that there are better ways of going about it. Even if we keep the same laws in place, making some little changes like the ones antiram mentioned could make all the difference. At the moment, nothing is going to change; people will just have to passively accept how things are.
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Old 12-28-2007, 04:10 PM   #447
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Originally posted by LemonMelon

Even if we keep the same laws in place, making some little changes like the ones antiram mentioned could make all the difference. At the moment, nothing is going to change; people will just have to passively accept how things are.
Who do you think is holding up all the progress on sex education and birth control?

Hint: it's not the pro-choice crowd.
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Old 12-28-2007, 04:12 PM   #448
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Originally posted by anitram


Who do you think is holding up all the progress on sex education and birth control?

Hint: it's not the pro-choice crowd.
My Christian brethren are not the easiest people to defend sometimes. Philly's in the same boat I am; he's Catholic, after all.
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Old 12-28-2007, 04:15 PM   #449
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Philly's in the same boat I am; he's Catholic, after all.
So am I. Perhaps that surprises you.
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Old 12-28-2007, 04:20 PM   #450
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So am I. Perhaps that surprises you.
It's not that surprising. What I find more surprising is that there are still so many folks out there who are adamantly opposed to birth control.
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