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Old 12-20-2007, 10:47 AM   #301
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Originally posted by LemonMelon


Concerning this issue, yes, it's pretty black-or-white around here.



see, this is why i think being pro-choice makes abortion truly shades of gray.

so long as it is legal, a woman can decides what she wants and needs to do. you can be totally against abortion and view each one as a tragedy, but still think that making them illegal isn't the best course of action. i have much more respect for those in the pro-life camp who might volunteer at pregnancy emergency centers, work very hard to help women explore other options, etc. i fully understand where the objection to abortion comes from -- though i think tossing out the word "murder" is really, really unhelpful; that's not honesty, that's inflammatory, and it's ultimately extremely anti-female -- but i also don't think that you're going to end abortion by making it illegal.

if abortion is so terrible (and i know why people think it is) why don't you focus on prevention? isn't that what we're supposed to do with other medical issues? shouldn't you exercise and eat right so you don't have a heart attack? shouldn't you not smoke so you don't get lung cancer? likewise, shouldn't you be taught the basics of human sexuality and provided with fully covered birth control (pills, condoms, whatever) so that you don't get pregnant in the first place?

it seems to me that much -- not all -- of the pro-life movement views a pregnancy as a punishment for a woman who's obviously been slutty. she's not a virgin. she's slept with someone other than her husband. and now that little slut has produced a beautiful, innocent baby, and she better take her promiscuous ass and get it in gear and get a job at WalMart and start focusing on that baby. if she had just followed the rules and abstained and gotten married like a good girl, then she wouldn't have gotten pregnant. serves her right.

alternatives to abortion is one thing; outlawing it is something totally different.
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Old 12-20-2007, 10:52 AM   #302
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The hierarchy kicks in during the homosexual rights/marriage threads, mostly. (For the record, that is one issue I have very little opinion about, perhaps because it doesn't affect me at all, and perhaps because I haven't given much thought to the potential ramifications of it) I have literally heard the phrase "certain opinions aren't allowed" in that particular area. I'm not bitching about it or anything, but that's just what I observed.


coming from who?

i've never heard anyone censor an opinion, and i'm sure our mods would speak up if such a thing were to happen.

i can understand that conservative posters don't like being ganged up on. there are times in more women's-rights oriented threads -- particularly concerning women and sexuality -- that i take more unpopular positions and sometimes feel ganged up on. but that's the nature of the forum, and of having a discussion, and sometimes you're in the minority and it's a great time to sharpen your skills and really work through your arguments.

i can understand that it can be hard to keep up when four people respond to one post, but if the argument is worth having, then surely it is worth defending? or is it that many of the "conservative" arguments put forth in here -- from "the surge is working" to "Jefferson was an evangelical protestant just like me" to "abortion is murder" -- aren't either very good arguments, or aren't positions that are particularly well argued?
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Old 12-20-2007, 11:15 AM   #303
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Originally posted by Irvine511




see, this is why i think being pro-choice makes abortion truly shades of gray.

so long as it is legal, a woman can decides what she wants and needs to do. you can be totally against abortion and view each one as a tragedy, but still think that making them illegal isn't the best course of action. i have much more respect for those in the pro-life camp who might volunteer at pregnancy emergency centers, work very hard to help women explore other options, etc. i fully understand where the objection to abortion comes from -- though i think tossing out the word "murder" is really, really unhelpful; that's not honesty, that's inflammatory, and it's ultimately extremely anti-female -- but i also don't think that you're going to end abortion by making it illegal.

if abortion is so terrible (and i know why people think it is) why don't you focus on prevention? isn't that what we're supposed to do with other medical issues? shouldn't you exercise and eat right so you don't have a heart attack? shouldn't you not smoke so you don't get lung cancer? likewise, shouldn't you be taught the basics of human sexuality and provided with fully covered birth control (pills, condoms, whatever) so that you don't get pregnant in the first place?

it seems to me that much -- not all -- of the pro-life movement views a pregnancy as a punishment for a woman who's obviously been slutty. she's not a virgin. she's slept with someone other than her husband. and now that little slut has produced a beautiful, innocent baby, and she better take her promiscuous ass and get it in gear and get a job at WalMart and start focusing on that baby. if she had just followed the rules and abstained and gotten married like a good girl, then she wouldn't have gotten pregnant. serves her right.

alternatives to abortion is one thing; outlawing it is something totally different.
Actually, I completely agree with you. The dead fetuses are a tragedy and that there are indeed people out there who treat the future with more respect than the present is a tragedy. To make abortion illegal is to promote greater health hazards for mothers everywhere; people couldn't get them in a medical emergency, plus, it would send folks back to the shady businesses that practiced it before it became legal using inferior tools. Dangerous? Yup.

The only thing I'm picky about is abortion being used as birth control. Even if a child cannot be properly provided for, I still think it should have a shot at life. But as you said, prevention would keep this from being an issue in the first place.

Quote:
coming from who?

i've never heard anyone censor an opinion, and i'm sure our mods would speak up if such a thing were to happen.

i can understand that conservative posters don't like being ganged up on. there are times in more women's-rights oriented threads -- particularly concerning women and sexuality -- that i take more unpopular positions and sometimes feel ganged up on. but that's the nature of the forum, and of having a discussion, and sometimes you're in the minority and it's a great time to sharpen your skills and really work through your arguments.

i can understand that it can be hard to keep up when four people respond to one post, but if the argument is worth having, then surely it is worth defending? or is it that many of the "conservative" arguments put forth in here -- from "the surge is working" to "Jefferson was an evangelical protestant just like me" to "abortion is murder" -- aren't either very good arguments, or aren't positions that are particularly well argued?
Well said. I have felt ganged-up on here in the past, but hey, a topic worth arguing over is one worth researching and discussing properly, even if that means being a little outnumbered when doing so.
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Old 12-20-2007, 11:24 AM   #304
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Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon


Actually, I completely agree with you. The dead fetuses are a tragedy and that there are indeed people out there who treat the future with more respect than the present is a tragedy. To make abortion illegal is to promote greater health hazards for mothers everywhere; people couldn't get them in a medical emergency, plus, it would send folks back to the shady businesses that practiced it before it became legal using inferior tools. Dangerous? Yup.

The only thing I'm picky about is abortion being used as birth control. Even if a child cannot be properly provided for, I still think it should have a shot at life. But as you said, prevention would keep this from being an issue in the first place.



Well said. I have felt ganged-up on here in the past, but hey, a topic worth arguing over is one worth researching and discussing properly, even if that means being a little outnumbered when doing so.
chin up my friend.


dbs
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Old 12-20-2007, 11:24 AM   #305
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To get back on topic...

Mike Huckabee will be eaten by the GOP elite in the end (I think). I can't conceive of any way they would allow him to be the candidate, because he is simply unelectable nation-wide.
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Old 12-20-2007, 11:29 AM   #306
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the closer you scrutanize the Gov and Baptist preacher, the more chinks you find in his armour.

1033 pardons including 12 murderers who "found Jesus"?

This guy is no law and order Republican.

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Old 12-20-2007, 11:32 AM   #307
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No, Huckabee's chances aren't great. Guiliani and Clinton will likely win the primaries, though Obama seems to be rising in popularity as of late.

I still want Paul vs. Kucinich, but that won't happen in a million years.
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Old 12-20-2007, 11:45 AM   #308
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Giuliani is dead in the water. I don't see how he has a chance at all. There are about 101 scandals following him and his claim that he's the one to beat Hillary really hasn't borne out in the polls. Plus he's scary, ghoullish-looking and unlikeable and the right hates him.

Romney has much better chances than Giuliani, but he's a slick flip flopper. McCain is the wildcard - I wrote him off eons ago, but he may just sneak past this awful mess in the end.
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Old 12-20-2007, 12:06 PM   #309
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Romney has much better chances than Giuliani, but he's a slick flip flopper. McCain is the wildcard - I wrote him off eons ago, but he may just sneak past this awful mess in the end.


i think it's either Romney or McCain. McCain could pull off a Kerry and be the consensus "electable" candidate.

for the Dems ... hard to say. i think it's still HRC's to lose, but Obama is a force to be reckoned with in many different ways. too close to call.
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Old 12-20-2007, 01:34 PM   #310
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Here's a very nice ad:

http://election.newsmax.com/romney_judgement/

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Old 12-20-2007, 03:02 PM   #311
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So, for those scoring at home:

GOP: Romney vs. McCain
Dems: Clinton vs. Obama
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Old 12-20-2007, 04:09 PM   #312
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I wouldnt count out Rudy. His strategy just might work.
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Old 12-20-2007, 04:18 PM   #313
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I wouldnt count out Rudy. His strategy just might work.
Agreed, exaggerating the Islamist terra threat is quite an effective tactic.
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Old 12-20-2007, 04:18 PM   #314
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I wouldnt count out Rudy. His strategy just might work.
What stradegy is that?
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Old 12-20-2007, 04:19 PM   #315
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What stradegy is that?
His strategy to get the nomination, by focusing on the bigger states.
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