SMELL OF BLOOD IN THE AIR

[BLOCK]

Babble;

My answer to your question is simple. I think that the US should stop what they are doing right now! Then take the leaders of Afgan on to live Televison and SHOW THEM THE PROOF that they CLAIM to be unaware of. Now I myself haven't seen this "proof" either. But I have enough 'faith' in the World that there acually is some. Now in that way the Afgan government could not possibly deny the fact that they would be wrong. And would be forced to hand over Bin Laden.
Now once the American government has a hold of him. I say we shouldn't kill him, that would only be giving him what he wants. Put him in a room that has the pictures of everyone that he killed in that airstrike plastered onto the walls, and keep him alive in that room for the rest of his life.

Seems like that would be the thing to do. No WAR!

Now I'm sure some of you will ask me ' Well BLOCK, you know, what if they Afgan government doesn't hand him over even if they get the evidence. ' Well then I would have to say, STOP BOMBING! And if getting a hold of one man is really that important to you, send in ground troops to forcefully take him so that you can be sure, with the appropriate amount of 'error' ( I guess we can call cold blooded murdering an 'error' since I'm sure that's what the report will say ) that no civilian will be harmed unnessisarily(if thats how you spell it).

PEACE

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by BLOCK:
Babble;
Put him (Bin Laden) in a room that has the pictures of everyone that he killed in that airstrike plastered onto the walls, and keep him alive in that room for the rest of his life.
PEACE

Really, Block, if you put a man in prison, would you put all his trophies in there with him? For that's what those 6000 people are to him...trophies of the horrendous crime he pulled off. Do you really think it would make him feel bad? Sorry. Wouldn't work. He would be glad that if he had to be in prison, he could at least be comforted by looking upon the pictures of the many "infidels" he killed in the name of what he thinks is Allah. He would think we were honoring him.
Also, you put the man in prison, and his cronies would break him out, or at least kill a lot of people trying. And what happens when he's in jail? How does that stop all the other terrorists from committing their crimes? It doesn't. theer is only one solution. Destroy the terrorist groups before they destroy America. And then the rest of the world. Block, if those guys win this war, you'll be living in a world controlled by pure unadulterated evil and hate. You could then kiss all your freedoms goodnight, especially the freedom to criticize your government.

 

[babble]

Ah darn, ye beat me 80's

...but just want I wanted to say. Block, we are dealing with individuals that are willing to do anything to kill Americans, in fact as 80's said, they feel it is honorable to do so. It is not just Bin Laden we are dealing with....this is a whole terrorist group.

Just one more thing....You say: "And if getting a hold of one man is really that important to you"
I surely hope you feel that it is worth "getting hold" of this man that is responsible for the murder of thousands of innnocent lives (and not just Americans). Surely you agree that justice must be served.

[This message has been edited by babble (edited 10-18-2001).]

 

[babble]

Ah yes, and thank you BLOCK, for answering my question.

 

[BLOCK]

True he does live to kill people who do not beleive in what he beleives but I seriously think that if he was in solitary for the rest of his life, waisting away in that cell. And having the only thing to look at be the people that he killed. I think that that would surly send him mad.

Worst than to kill a man, is to kill his mind.
-BLOCK


PEACE

 

[StarsnStripes]

Originally posted by BLOCK:
Just to clarify for those of you who STILL think I'm an American hating terrorist. I'M NOT!

I think America is great! I don't 'LOVE' America but I don't 'HATE' America either. I guess that would make me neutral..quite a concept eh?

The issue is NOT whether you are pro or anti America. The issue is which side you take on terrorism. There is no room for neutrality here as I see it. Regardless of what you think of our gov't, let them take care of this world-wide threat, go back to being critical of US foreign policy later.



------------------
Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do for someone is to just tell them to fuck off. I am told to fuck off rather a lot by these three gentlemen.

 

[StarsnStripes]

Originally posted by Marko:

Now for some qoute:

I quoted something like this in another thread and this is just wrong - maybe US is giving the most in absolute amount of help - BUT when you look at help in percentage of countries GDP than it's something totaly different. Of all the western states Danemark gives 1% of their GDP, than comes other nations as Norway, France, Sweden, Australia, Germany (not paricukary in that order), and US is on the bottom of that list with 0,1% of their GDP. Don't get me wrong, you give a lot, but by saying that you give the most, especialy by the heas of the citisen, is an insult to all those nations, and all those people that give more thatn you.

Point taken, Marko, but really, what do % of GNP statistics mean to starving people??


Another thing: why couldn't a country be neutral? ......... And what does neutral means? Is being neutral not acting and helping, or is it saying that you are neutral?

Not helping or acting doesn't show neutrality, the US knows many of its allies are not able to offer anything.

Oh, and the Swiss thing- they claim neutrality all the time when a fight breaks out so as to avoid being attacked. The fact is that during WWII they were a silent partner of the Axis, and probably are assisting one side or the other now. Didn't they help freeze terrorist assets last month or was that another country?

------------------
Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do for someone is to just tell them to fuck off. I am told to fuck off rather a lot by these three gentlemen.

 

[U2Bama]

Originally posted by BLOCK:
Then take the leaders of Afgan on to live Televison and SHOW THEM THE PROOF that they CLAIM to be unaware of. Now I myself haven't seen this "proof" either. But I have enough 'faith' in the World that there acually is some. Now in that way the Afgan government could not possibly deny the fact that they would be wrong. And would be forced to hand over Bin Laden.

Okay. Would we have Geraldo Rivera moderate this little television spectacle?

 

[melon]

We know there's more to it than just the apprehension of bin Laden. Trust me. The U.S. has toppled governments for more frivolous reasons (Guatemala's last democracy was toppled by the U.S. at the request of a U.S. pineapple company), and knowing that a nation harbors terrorists, or, more specifically, enemies of the U.S., makes it a prime target for destruction.

What one must hope here, though, is that the U.S. will see this through and not install another tyrannical government like it has been fond of in the past. The Northern Alliance isn't as clean as the media paints them to be, you know. The Afghanistan civil war is mostly a case of various evils entrenched in rivalry. The people? Expendable. Once the Taliban falls, it is likely that the Northern Alliance will start fighting amongst itself, as it did before the Taliban.

Melon

------------------
"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

 

[Matthew_Page2000]

Block,

Your idea is dependent entirely upon the Taliban being the sort of people and government who respond to reason. Do you honestly think that they will capitulate and surrender Bin Laden when faced with evidence of his complicity in the 9/11 terror attacks? No government on earth behaves in such a reasonable way and yes I'm including the United States. Besides, they already know that he was involved. Everyone knows that he was involved except for Interferencer Patti Jones who is strangely convinced of his innocence.

Melon makes the sound point that the Northern Alliance might not be the most benevolent of rulers either. Perhaps not but I'm left with the same question I keep harping on in these matters: What is the alternative? Apparently Secretary of State Colin Powell has assured Pakistan that the Northen Alliance will only be one part of a coalition government in Afghanistan but what does that mean really? Who will make up the other "parts?"

MAP

 

[ouizy]

Bin Ladin cannot be captured. Bin Ladin cannot be jailed. Bin Ladin must be killed, whether by assassination, o rbomb, he must not be allowed to live.

If he were to be put into a jail, all it would take is one hijacked plane of his followers (this we all know is now possible) to demand him to be freed as a ransom or they would kill everyone on the plane (this we also now know is possible, and probable.)

If this does not occur for the four we just sent away for life, I would be very surprised...

 

[BLOCK]

Ok, well since I am obvioulsy wrong. I guess that I really can't be on no side. I guess I really can't not beleive in WAR. All you crusaders really proved me wrong on this one. WAR IS GREAT! O well, I lose. Just like all those innocent people that are going to be killed by the US and the Afgan governments.

PEACE

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by BLOCK:
Ok, well since I am obvioulsy wrong. I guess that I really can't be on no side. I guess I really can't not beleive in WAR. All you crusaders really proved me wrong on this one. WAR IS GREAT! O well, I lose. Just like all those innocent people that are going to be killed by the US and the Afgan governments.
PEACE

BLOCK, that's kind of a silly reply. None of us said War is great. We merely said it's teh only viable alternative in this situation.

 

[BLOCK]

I know it was a bit childish but war can never be the ONLY choice...killing is not an option.

 

[babble]

Originally posted by BLOCK:
I know it was a bit childish but war can never be the ONLY choice...killing is not an option.

BLOCK,
If you feel that the alternative solution you have posted here is a valid one then why not try to rally other anti-war individuals into getting this message, this alternative solution, across to the U.S. government? If you truly have the faith that this plan would work, and if you truly care about the lives of the innocent Afghan people, is it not worth a try? I think you know this solution you've come up with is ineffective and you aren't willing to admit it.

You and other anti-war people (who seem to have completely dissapeared over the last few days) have complained about some Americans' zealous blind patriotism and support of our government, but I say that many anti-war people are guilty of the same thing. Blindly following.





[This message has been edited by babble (edited 10-19-2001).]

 

[IvanClaytonJnr]

Human race is not perfect , we still have a lot of things to learn about , Our soul and intellectual development is very low , no surprise why aliens don't want to meet us .


It happens again , in mess we're in ......

Is there any hope ??????????????????????????????????????



[This message has been edited by Achtung_Bebe (edited 10-24-2001).]

 

[speedracer]

Originally posted by IvanClaytonJnr:
Our soul and intellectual development is very low , no surprise why aliens don't want to meet us .

The precise quote is from Calvin (from the cartoon Calvin and Hobbes): "I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."

 

[soul service]

First, I must say I support Block with his anti-war point of view. What you are all saying is "The mofo Bin Laden shoot on us, we shoot him back!" Do you know for how long war is going on in the arabic countries? If you were a person who wakes up every morning with bombings and explosion,scared of walking because the country is a huge mine field, seeing the rests of the bombs with "USA" written on it, I definitely think you would hate America. (By the way, I'm so sick and tired of hearing America... America is not a country. Canada, Mexico, Peru, they're all a part of America. Here, we're talking about the United States of America...) Secondly, don't forget they're taken from their childhood to be brainwashed with this Allah thing and the anti-USA mentality. Thirdly, you brainwash everyone with your Flag story and your "We fight for freedom.". Do you remember Nagasaki? The US government, sometime after the bombing, said to the media and population :"No, the A-bomb doens't leave radioactivity that horribly kill people... We're not killers!" Yeah right... My teacher, who is crazy about wars and reading about it, told us he read in a book that the Japanese were ready to leave the war, (can I say "abdicating"?)but the US government bombed Japan anyway to prove the Russian they had the A-bomb and to justify the millions or billions of dollars put in its development. Finally, NO, an American life isn't more worth it than any other life on the planet... People kill too easily. Violence only brings violence. Working together, cause we're ONE, we're all the same, but different, we're only the most intelligent animal on the planet, but we're still just animals!... still, working together is the only way to get to peace. And working together means sometimes forgetting our egos, it means opening our minds to a different point of view than ours and to try to understand the REAL message the other is giving us!!! Shit, you were bombed. It's certainly not only because you were the best, like Bush said. Didn't that rise questions in your head??? Try to see further than your nose and you'll see beautiful things...

Sorry for my intense writing. I'm like that. Not willing to offense anybody... Just saying what's on my mind...

 

[babble]

Soul Service,
I will ask you the same question I have posed all the anti-war individuals. Please look here: http://forum.u2wdd.org/u2feedback/Forum11/HTML/000729.html

 

[babble]

I know some of you are getting tired of me asking this question but I feel it is a very valid one and I will continue to ask it. Saying "No war no matter what!" is just as thoughtless and as much a knee-jerk reaction as those individuals that say "Let's bomb Afgahnistan off the map!" This is a complicated situation that requires much thought.

 

[BLOCK]

Babble;

The reason that it seems that I'm 'giving up' is because I have answered every question that you asked me. I have countered, in my mind, every arguement that you have put forward with at least an open mind. But still you continue to think that WAR is the only way out. You say that my idea will not work, why not try it? What do you have to lose other than your ego? I see nothing wrong with my plan other than the fact that most of the people that have posted in this thread don't want to see the killing end. I simply have givin up on trying to explain to you that there are other ways, we (humans) are not superior to anything else on this planet. And we definatly arn't superior to any other human on the planet.

and Soul Service;

Thank you, that is what I've been trying to say all along.

and finally

If I hear Bush say anything about how the US must strike back because of the recent helicopter incodent, I will flip. HOW DO YOU EXPECT NO STRIKE BACK??? doyou seriously want to have a constant attack on Afgan and say 'do'nt kill us becuase it's not right?' PLEASE!!!~

PEACE

 

[soul service]

Babble, what we're saying is that the Talibans and arabic countries had people killed because the USA put their noses into their things. These people feel like you, they want revenge and justice. And we're saying that replying to that with a revenge spirit only leads to revenge and on and on... We're saying STOP THE FUCKI** WHEEL!!

And I'll be honest with you. I don't think most of the Talibans are worth living. They brainwash people so they'll be human bombs for their god Allah, without even letting them the choice to decide. They, officially, have the choice. But they've been SO brainwashed that they don't see another way of seeing things. They don't think there is another point of view that beats their own point of view!!! They don't question theirselves... I must confess that I'm pretty scared of the fanatics cause they can do very hurtful things to the WHOLE human race, like biotechnological war. If they put some shit in the water, I guess you all know that water runs from river to the ocean. This means that every single drop of water will be contagious or dangerous. And that's not a good news. The point is that, like you, for the moment, I don't see how we can get out of this shit without killing them.

But it's certainly not by bombing their country like you do that we'll get out of this crisis. What do they want? What does these persons want? And the leaders are the problems. Not the entire country. Religion gets people blind. Doubt is a good thing.

Finally, I don't really have an answer except discussing with what THEY want. Not a "I'm scared of you, so we'll discuss" kind of discussion... But, at least, be "open" to what they say, cause these persons got loved ones killed by USA. They're hurt just like you...

 

[babble]

Soul Service,
When did I ever say anything about revenge? Revenge and justice are two different things. I agree that we must not go about this with a spirit of revenge, although some Americans' attitudes towards it is. We must repress that hateful angry spirit because it spreads like a disease and causes more problems. I know what you mean when you say this, but you must understand that justice can be achieved without this spirit, and justice is necessary.

You speak of open discussions with what "they" want. Before I go on, could you please clarify what you mean by "they"? Do you mean the Taliban, Bin Laden and his followers, or the Afghan people in general?

 

[MSU2mike]

This is off topic, but it should be said.

Ivan, calm down with the punctuation. Stringing characters together like that only serves to fuck up the page and drag it out, making it more difficult to read. Poor netiquette. It doesn't enhance your point (whatever that was).

 

[melon]

I must agree. Negotiating with the Taliban over handing over bin Laden would be like negotiating with the Christian Coalition over gay rights: you'll get nowhere, no matter how hard you shout, no matter how hard you reason, no matter how much evidence you give them. Neither would budge, because why? "God is on our side."

And, FYI, I am using the Christian Coalition metaphor to explain this in a way that liberal minds might understand where I am coming from. So, I ask, do you understand where I am coming from?

I hate war completely. I lament that we have come to a war. I really wish things could go back to the way it was, but, unfortunately, I do not see any other alternative to what is currently being done. Bin Laden has struck the U.S. not once (WTC in 1993), not twice (embassy bombings), not three times (ship off of Yemen), but four times (September 11th). While I could go on about history, we have to stay in the present, and bin Laden does not differentiate between civilian and military casualties. And, so, honestly, what else can you do?

I have some other very non-P.C. beliefs right now, but I will keep them to myself. Words spoken in anger are best left unsaid.

Melon

------------------
"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

 

[melon]

Originally posted by MSU2mike:
Stringing characters together like that only serves to fuck up the page and drag it out, making it more difficult to read.

This is where my 1600x1200 resolution comes in handy.

Melon

------------------
"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

 

[soul service]

Bin Laden probably want the USA to get out of this Israel-Palestine (how do you write that in English?) conflict so that he could give the city back to Allah, or whatever. This is not the thing to do, we agree, cause a lot of people will die. But, we can, at least, try to be open to negociate with. Bin Laden did attack the USA four times, but he surely wasn't alone. We have a problem to deal with their way of thinking and we're putting our noses in their stuff. I'm not saying we're wrong, cause if we didn't, maybe the world would have already exploded. Who knows? But, we can at least review how we act with them. I agree with Melon about asking the Talibans to hand Bin Laden. It will never work out. We're asking irreasonable demands.

If Bin Laden isn't happy with how the USA politically deal with other country, it doesn't give him the right to kill people, I agree. Except that we could at least listen to what he got to say. I'm not saying it won't take time and energy, but every problems are hard to work out, because human has a problem with his ego. He cannot accept to be wrong. He has difficulties to approve with others that he did a mistake. I'm saying :"Let's open our minds" and not "Bin Laden, can we lick your ass".

There is a whole society problem beneath that. I think capitalism should be reviewed and adapted. The human race tend to become less and less human. More violence. More technology. More cash. Less interactivity. Less human contact. Less emotions. There is a bigger question than just "Is war the answer?". First, "Where does the war come from?" and "What do we need to bring a social equilibrium?" Yes, it's all utopic and idealism, but we need some. Mostly these days...

 

[BLOCK]

(ill miss arguing with you about drugs melon)

well babble since obvoiusly you won't budge on this...and i will never agree to killing.........this subject is closed

i really don't care about what anyone else has left to say...because no one other than myself has anything relivent to say to me.....because of something personal that happend today i no longer have faith in the human race..and our survival...we as a unit are ignorant selfish and conniving ...and yes that includes ME!

i am no longer going to be on this forum so i would just like to say one last thing.


FUCK EACH AND EVERYONE ONE OF YOU!

this has nothing to do with this conversation...but i've had it with this fucking 'earth'


on a last note.... babble you son of a bitch...why didn't you post what the guy who i was responding to said?...


HATE! it's a beautiful thing!

(im not krazy...i see clearer now than i have before..)

GOODBYE

 

[Squid]

Ack! Now you now why I stay out of Free Your Mind.

 

[babble]

Originally posted by BLOCK:
Babble;

The reason that it seems that I'm 'giving up' is because I have answered every question that you asked me. I have countered, in my mind, every arguement that you have put forward with at least an open mind. But still you continue to think that WAR is the only way out. You say that my idea will not work, why not try it? What do you have to lose other than your ego? I see nothing wrong with my plan other than the fact that most of the people that have posted in this thread don't want to see the killing end. I simply have givin up on trying to explain to you that there are other ways, we (humans) are not superior to anything else on this planet. And we definatly arn't superior to any other human on the planet.

and Soul Service;

Thank you, that is what I've been trying to say all along.

and finally

If I hear Bush say anything about how the US must strike back because of the recent helicopter incodent, I will flip. HOW DO YOU EXPECT NO STRIKE BACK??? doyou seriously want to have a constant attack on Afgan and say 'do'nt kill us becuase it's not right?' PLEASE!!!~

PEACE

Actually, I do not think you are reading what I've written or responding with an open-mind at all because you seem to be under the impression that all people that are not completely anti-war are blood-thirsty Americans with bloated egos whose sole purpose in supporting the war is to prove our power and might. This simply is not true. I hope that you will try to understand this. Let me tell you, I have considered and thought over many possible alternatives but I haven't come across one that I think would actually work, that includes yours. I think you are coming from a very idealistic standpoint that you aren't willing to budge an inch on. The world needs ideals and we need to try to live up to those high ideals but we need to also be sensible, especially in serious situations such as the one we are in now. I understand where you are coming from, but I don't think you are looking at this sensibly.

I'm not sure what you mean by all I have to lose is my ego by trying this. I am not coming from an egotistical standpoint. I am not coming from the standpoint that "The U.S.A. is a great and flawless nation and we will crush all who try to defy us". I am coming from the standpoint that we need to bring justice to the innocent lives that were cruelly murdered.


You ask "why not try it?". First of all, the Taliban are not reasonable people, and even if you could get them to go on live television and look at the evidence, it is highly doubtful they would just hand Bin Laden over to the U.S. without a fight. In fact, I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but if a person that is a citizen of another country commits a crime in the U.S., and this person is residing in another country it is up to that country whether or not they hand the person over to be tried in a U.S. court. Yes, they can try him in their country, but if you have read anything about the Taliban, I don't see how you could think they'd fairly try Bin Laden. He would most likely get off at the most with a slap on the wrist and continue to cause terrorist attacks. The Taliban are not reasonable, sane leaders. This is why we have demanded that the Taliban hand him over. Bin Laden is obviously very important to them or else they would have handed him over to begin with to save themselves from having to get into war.

If they didn't hand him over (and yes BLOCK, it is important to us to bring to justice the murderer of thousands of innocent men,women and children) and we went into Afganistan with ground troops to forcefully get him, do you really think that we could get him without killing at least a few of the individuals that would try to stop us from getting him? If our soldiers go in there and come face to face with an army of Bin-Laden's followers shooting at them, what should they do? Dodge the bullets, wrestle them to the ground and hand-cuff them? Let me ask you this, since you say killing is never justified, do you consider self-defense cold-blooded murder? I think this may be where we disagree.

I have also put forth the challenge to you that if you really feel it will work, why not campaign to get this idea of yours put into effect? Why not try it? Have you? I think you have "given up" and resorted to childish posts like:

PEACE...LOVE...NO WAR!

o I'm sorry those words don't mean dick in American!

Get it though your wise ass that killing is wrong! No matter who does it! and for what reason they're doing it for!

because you haven't a sensible, well-thought point to back you up. Only your ideological rhetoric.