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Old 02-08-2006, 12:06 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by MsGiggles


but the two stories from the posts that followed shows evidence of sexual harassmant among elementary school children....
The story of the boy with the doorstop in his pants, I can see as being a product of society or what's going on in his house. But there's a big difference in a 5th grader and a 6 year old. His parents have fucked up.

I agree the broom story is very disturbing, but even that I don't see how that's a product of society. I don't see where anyone is showing in any form or fashion that having others hold someone down is appropriate.

What I also see as disturbing that in the same article:

Quote:
In 1996, first-grader Johnathan Prevette made national headlines when officials at Southwestern Elementary in Lexington, N.C., yanked him from class for one day and barred him from going to an ice-cream party for students with perfect attendance after a teacher saw him smooch a female classmate.
If the roles were reversed it would have been news.
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Old 02-08-2006, 12:25 PM   #17
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Originally posted by doubleU
I agree the broom story is very disturbing, but even that I don't see how that's a product of society. I don't see where anyone is showing in any form or fashion that having others hold someone down is appropriate.
Because we certainly don't include elements of sex and violence in our advertising, television shows, music videos, and video games.

It is clear that this was directly taught by the parents.


[/sarcasm]
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Old 02-08-2006, 12:35 PM   #18
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Because we certainly don't include elements of sex and violence in our advertising, television shows, music videos, and video games.

It is clear that this was directly taught by the parents.


[/sarcasm]
I've never seen MTV videos, commercials, television programs that show having your friends hold someone down as cool, appropriate, or even sexual.
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Old 02-08-2006, 12:49 PM   #19
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Originally posted by doubleU


I've never seen MTV videos, commercials, television programs that show having your friends hold someone down as cool, appropriate, or even sexual.
You are right - they could only learn by directly copying what they see on television.

What happened was the outcome of the sad mix of sex and violence that is common place in our world.
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Old 02-08-2006, 01:02 PM   #20
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


You are right - they could only learn by directly copying what they see on television.

What happened was the outcome of the sad mix of sex and violence that is common place in our world.
Well I see what you saying.

I wasn't trying to say that they can only learn by directly copying. Just that I think "the product of society" arguement is too often used as a cop out, when personal responsibility is thrown out the door.

I just have a hard time believing that 6 year olds are exposed to that much violence in everyday society that allows one to feel this is alright. My exposure to 6 years old right now is minimal, a few nephews and nieces.
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Old 02-08-2006, 01:10 PM   #21
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Originally posted by doubleU


Well I see what you saying.

I wasn't trying to say that they can only learn by directly copying. Just that I think "the product of society" arguement is too often used as a cop out, when personal responsibility is thrown out the door.

I just have a hard time believing that 6 year olds are exposed to that much violence in everyday society that allows one to feel this is alright. My exposure to 6 years old right now is minimal, a few nephews and nieces.
I fully agree that personal responsibility is rejected in favor of rampant finger pointing.

When dealing with children, there is a significant burden on parents to monitor and control the media they injest and take the time to teach them through the various images, concepts or ideas to which they are exposed.
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Old 02-08-2006, 01:44 PM   #22
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ok case 2 is extreme and the teacher sshould have stepped in

I mean, what is the point of ignorance and then law suit?

as for case 1... seriously

I mean no offence, but no wonder the rest of the world tends to give the USA a wiered look sometimes

sometimes it should be checked what is really inacceptable and what is just hysteria. Not everything is a physological defect or whatever

american people must have been complete wrecks and all criminals/ sexual offenders beofre this kind of thinking took over straightened them out
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Old 02-08-2006, 03:36 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
When dealing with children, there is a significant burden on parents to monitor and control the media they injest and take the time to teach them through the various images, concepts or ideas to which they are exposed.
Do you really think we need media influence to explain these kinds of petty humiliations? Seems to me that garden variety bra-snapping, butt-pinching, groping and other forms of taunts have been around for as long as other sorts of bullies have. I've read memoirs from the 19th century that describe this kind of harassment. Perhaps media influence makes it a *bit* easier to depersonalize others in this way, but unfortunately children do come equipped with sadistic impulses just like everyone else and it takes a lot of work in inculcating respect for boundaries to get them to realize the principle of "How would I like it if someone did this to me?" I don't think these kinds of incidents really have much to do with a lust for sex and violence.

This was one more reason I loved the "alternative" program I was in for a few years back in the '70s, where kids of 3 different grade levels were mixed together in one class--it didn't end bullying totally, but it did have the effect of creating as kind of big sibling/little sibling dynamic between the kids that made us feel a lot more family-type solidarity with each other than schoolkids usually feel.

I do agree that it's an abdication of proper authority for a school to deal with one such incident through expulsion.
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Old 02-08-2006, 06:07 PM   #24
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I am an administrator in an elementary school. Sexual harassment is real. In an elementary school however, there is more harrassment than sexual harassment.

Being a vice principal, I tend to have to deal with most of the incidents that occur in my building.

1st graders get suspended, but not usually because of one incident. Usually the suspension takes place after a number of incidents.

There is nothing in this article that indicates to me that the school has done anything wrong by this suspension. You must remember that there are legal reasons why the school cannot come out and say anything that has happened in the school with this child. WE do not know if there have been any incidents, nor do we know exactly why this boy was suspended, because the school according to the initial article would not provide the details.

We have one side of the story. Period.


Suspension is not EXPULSION. Expulsion is when a child is not allowed to return to school. Suspension is for a period of time.

To answer you questions about where are kids learning these things I can provide some insight.

If a child has older siblings, they are very likely to be given information from their older siblings. It is a fact of life. Many parents wonder where their child is learning something or a behavior and many times it comes from the older child. Usually in the fifth grade you will find that the health education that takes place is about puberty. You will almost always have a rise in inappropriate activity after the talk. It is not uncommon for girls as young as nine years old to get their period. keep in mind that nine years old is the THIRD GRADE. Kids are learning things younger.

Finally, they learn it on TV. I cannot get into specifics, however, if you fall asleep with the TV on and your child comes into the room you never know what might be on. Girls Gone Wild commerials may innocently be on the channel you are watching (Comedy Central), you fall asleep with the Daily Show on, and your five year old wakes up and comes in at 3:00 AM.....ect ect......next thing you know I am calling you because your child is applying what they learned at recess.

Victorias Secret commercials are also quite the take.....

So take it from a vice principal.....

it is not always bad parenting.....

Your kids are learning more than you want to know they know.....
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Old 02-08-2006, 06:36 PM   #25
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I think what they did to the six-year old is ludicrous. How is he supposed to know anything about sex?? It's stupid.
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Old 02-08-2006, 06:39 PM   #26
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Ummm....

[Q]Dorinvil said school administrators told her that her son's infraction was to place his hand inside the waistband of a girl's pants, touching the skin on her back.[/Q]

Let's assume that this is the FIRST infraction.....

What should the school have done?
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Old 02-08-2006, 06:42 PM   #27
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[Q]Dorinvil said school administrators told her that her son's infraction was to place his hand inside the waistband of a girl's pants, touching the skin on her back.[/Q]

Let's assume this had been happening repeatedly.....

What should the school have done?
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Old 02-08-2006, 06:51 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


If a child has older siblings, they are very likely to be given information from their older siblings. It is a fact of life. Many parents wonder where their child is learning something or a behavior and many times it comes from the older child.

So take it from a vice principal.....

it is not always bad parenting.....

Your kids are learning more than you want to know they know.....
Older siblings are a huge influence.

When my youngest son was in 3rd grade, he and several of his buddies were in the garage after school one day and as I walked by the inside door, I heard one of them say something about his "dick" I stood there for a minute and watched the other boys go from wide eyed and little shocked to doubled over with laughter. Of course he said it again just get another reaction and that's when they all saw me.

I scolded the potty mouth and asked him where he learned the word and he said through tears "my brother says it all the time!"

That was an eye opener for me because I normally would have blamed TV or the parents but it made sense considering he was 9 and had 4 teenage siblings.
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Old 02-08-2006, 06:56 PM   #29
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
There is nothing in this article that indicates to me that the school has done anything wrong by this suspension. You must remember that there are legal reasons why the school cannot come out and say anything that has happened in the school with this child. WE do not know if there have been any incidents, nor do we know exactly why this boy was suspended, because the school according to the initial article would not provide the details.

We have one side of the story. Period.


Suspension is not EXPULSION. Expulsion is when a child is not allowed to return to school. Suspension is for a period of time.
Sorry my bad, I didn't pay close enough attention to the terminology used in the article. And you're right, we probably can't be reminded often enough that schools are bound to silence on the matter for legal reasons. As a teacher myself I ought to have known better.

I am still skeptical of just how formative images of sex on TV are to these impulses, though. I do agree that it makes depersonalizing others easier (i.e., reducing them to a label or a body), and further loosens any inhibitions about bringing sexual overtones into one's grab-bag of bullying techniques. But I think we underestimate childrens' potential to seek to humiliate other children, by whatever means come to mind, when we reflexively attribute it to media influences. If your child is inspired by a Victoria's Secret ad to grope another child and enjoy watching them cry or get flustered, then there are problems there that simply limiting TV access won't address.

Would you have suspended a student for putting his hands inside a girl's pants and onto her back on one occasion? What about the age-old tradition of bra-snapping?
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Old 02-08-2006, 07:02 PM   #30
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
Ummm....

[Q]Dorinvil said school administrators told her that her son's infraction was to place his hand inside the waistband of a girl's pants, touching the skin on her back.[/Q]

Let's assume that this is the FIRST infraction.....

What should the school have done?
You punish and explain why this is wrong, but keep them in school.


As a vice principal, how do complaints come about? Teacher sees it, or someone tells a teacher?

How seriously is the whole "surprise attack" kiss thing taken? Because when I was in school it was the girls kissing the guys and it was looked at as nothing but a game?
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