Sinn Fein / IRA
- Thread starter financeguy
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
yolland
Forum Moderator
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That is a really interesting take on the current situation, financeguy. Thanks for posting it.
The strategy he's attributing to Adams certainly seems to fit with the 'human bombs' episode; I'm a bit less convinced about the current situation, at least to the extent that he (Moloney) seems to suggest that Adams is similarly in control here. Before, Adams was able to position himself as an alternative to the men who were following his orders; but he hardly seems successful at that right now! If anything, most of this outrage and disgust seems to be directed straight at him--not at the IRA in general.
It's strange how paramilitary/terrorist/insurgent groups tend to become more, not less, corrupt (gangsterism, drug-running, etc.) during prolonged ceasefires or other lulls in activity. It seems counterintuitive, yet this is so often what happens.
Very, very disheartening situation...
The strategy he's attributing to Adams certainly seems to fit with the 'human bombs' episode; I'm a bit less convinced about the current situation, at least to the extent that he (Moloney) seems to suggest that Adams is similarly in control here. Before, Adams was able to position himself as an alternative to the men who were following his orders; but he hardly seems successful at that right now! If anything, most of this outrage and disgust seems to be directed straight at him--not at the IRA in general.
It's strange how paramilitary/terrorist/insurgent groups tend to become more, not less, corrupt (gangsterism, drug-running, etc.) during prolonged ceasefires or other lulls in activity. It seems counterintuitive, yet this is so often what happens.
Very, very disheartening situation...
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
When they arent being given money to murder they have to make a living somehow ~ that goes for most terrorist groups.
bonoman
Refugee
I dont know where to start with the trash that i just read.
Talk about assuming everything and proving nothing, this is the epitamy of that.
Becasue McDowell says that Adams, Martin and Ferris are on the AC makes it true? Well funny he left out that Bertie even said that he has no evidence that that is true. So what that says is either Micheal McDowell (Justice Minister) has better inteligence then the Bertie or he is saying it because like most things in the media your guilty before any proff has been put foward.
Your man that wrote the article points out that 9 people were arrested. Funny, he forgets to say that 8 of them were released without charge and the other was granted bail. The one person who is being charged is being charged with Membership of the IRA. What most people dont reliese is that when your charged with membership of the IRA that includes Provos, Real, CIRA, INLA. This particular person is being charged as a Real IRA person. Sinn Fein has never said they are in contact with the Real IRA.
What alot of people dont reliese and maybe the media is missing it as well. Sinn Fein is now not only the Republican party of Catholics in the north but the biggest challange to FF, FG, Labour! Why would Bertie and McDowell want Sinn Fein to have their day in court, its easier to slander them in the media and have this circus that will be well over before any truth comes out. By that time Sinn Fein is no longer a threat polically, but then the IRA will have nothing else to turn to but the gun.
With regards to McCartney. That was a crime a crime the people will go to jail for. It was in the heat of the moment and couldnt have been sanctioned by AC. The IRA did the right thing in naming and expelling them. But even there Sinn Fein was critized. Its the cool thing to do nowadays, i guess.
But keep in mind the IRA are less dangerous with Gerry, Martin, Kelly at the head of republicanism then anyone else! And that my friends they should be praised for, when you live in a highly imperfect society in West Belfast, thses things happen.
When you've been second class citizens for so long, but now you can bring peace to the struggle and something like this happens you must be strong. I believe they will pull through.
Talk about assuming everything and proving nothing, this is the epitamy of that.
Becasue McDowell says that Adams, Martin and Ferris are on the AC makes it true? Well funny he left out that Bertie even said that he has no evidence that that is true. So what that says is either Micheal McDowell (Justice Minister) has better inteligence then the Bertie or he is saying it because like most things in the media your guilty before any proff has been put foward.
Your man that wrote the article points out that 9 people were arrested. Funny, he forgets to say that 8 of them were released without charge and the other was granted bail. The one person who is being charged is being charged with Membership of the IRA. What most people dont reliese is that when your charged with membership of the IRA that includes Provos, Real, CIRA, INLA. This particular person is being charged as a Real IRA person. Sinn Fein has never said they are in contact with the Real IRA.
What alot of people dont reliese and maybe the media is missing it as well. Sinn Fein is now not only the Republican party of Catholics in the north but the biggest challange to FF, FG, Labour! Why would Bertie and McDowell want Sinn Fein to have their day in court, its easier to slander them in the media and have this circus that will be well over before any truth comes out. By that time Sinn Fein is no longer a threat polically, but then the IRA will have nothing else to turn to but the gun.
With regards to McCartney. That was a crime a crime the people will go to jail for. It was in the heat of the moment and couldnt have been sanctioned by AC. The IRA did the right thing in naming and expelling them. But even there Sinn Fein was critized. Its the cool thing to do nowadays, i guess.
But keep in mind the IRA are less dangerous with Gerry, Martin, Kelly at the head of republicanism then anyone else! And that my friends they should be praised for, when you live in a highly imperfect society in West Belfast, thses things happen.
When you've been second class citizens for so long, but now you can bring peace to the struggle and something like this happens you must be strong. I believe they will pull through.
bonoman, thanks for your perspective.
Until REAL PROOF is given in a court of law that these contentions against the IRA and Sinn Fein are true, I remain skeptical of their validity because the NI authorities and the British government have a HISTORY OF GETTING IT WRONG when it comes to these organizations.
http://forum.interference.com/t111333.html
If it is proven that they are guilty, I'll condemn them too. But until REAL PROOF is given, I'll just wait and see.
That seems like the best thing to do.
Until REAL PROOF is given in a court of law that these contentions against the IRA and Sinn Fein are true, I remain skeptical of their validity because the NI authorities and the British government have a HISTORY OF GETTING IT WRONG when it comes to these organizations.
http://forum.interference.com/t111333.html
If it is proven that they are guilty, I'll condemn them too. But until REAL PROOF is given, I'll just wait and see.
That seems like the best thing to do.
bonoman
Refugee
I cant believe I have finally came across a person with a bit of common sense and perspective! Thank you!
I could put a list together of the times the Brits were wrong and republicans were wrongfully convicted that would be as long as your arm!
Wait and see, and like Jamilla I'll condem it as well!
I could put a list together of the times the Brits were wrong and republicans were wrongfully convicted that would be as long as your arm!
Wait and see, and like Jamilla I'll condem it as well!
yolland
Forum Moderator
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2004
- Messages
- 7,471
bonoman said:
What do you mean, 'but'? That's also the position the author is taking. He's not suggesting that Adams approved the bank heist to spite the peace process; rather, he's suggesting Adams did so to keep it alive, by putting the IRA in such a bad PR position that even its hardliners might finally agree to make some concessions to the DUP's demands for hard evidence of disarmament.
Like I said, I don't find this argument convincing, but it is the argument he's making. And I must admit that McGuinness' rhetoric at Westminster on Tuesday reflected a strange mixture of self-distancing (from the IRA) with gestures of goodwill (towards the DUP) that could be used to support Moloney's scenario:
<< Asked whether he was certain the IRA had nothing to do with the raid, Mr McGuinness said: “In the absence of any evidence whatsoever, we have asked both the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister to give us some indication of why Hugh Orde believes what he believes and thus far nothing has been produced.
“All I can say is that in the aftermath of the robbery at the Northern Bank, I went to the IRA and asked the IRA were they responsible and was there a possibility that any of their membership was responsible and they gave me a very categorical answer. They said No.
“I have been working on the basis that that position hasn’t changed. All of us can speculate as much as we like, but the fact is that if you live in a democracy and espouse democracy, you have to work on the basis that people are innocent until proven guilty.”
Mr McGuinness said he was “intrigued” by recent comments by Dr Paisley, who told Irish broadcaster RTE on Sunday that he was ready to share power with Sinn Fein if there was “no arms and no crime”.
“Clearly, he acknowledges and recognises that if there are to be institutions established in the future ... that at some stage in the future he is going to have to go into government with the representatives of Sinn Fein,” said Mr McGuinness.
“If Ian Paisley is indicating that he is still interested in concluding an agreement with Sinn Fein – and that was the import of his remarks to RTE – then the work to begin that dialogue and resolution should begin as soon as possible.
“Ian Paisley is, I think, in many ways acknowledging that the template of the Good Friday Agreement is the only way forward for us all, including himself.
“I think it would be sensible for us to have a conversation with Ian Paisley about these matters and to do that as quickly as possible.” >>
Of course, the Irish Times has already chipped away a bit at the 'evidence' question by revealing that the discovery of stolen banknotes at Dundonald was a hoax generated by the PSNI so they could track and record IRA communications reacting to said 'discovery.' According to the Times, it was on the basis of the resulting recordings that Orde made his '99.9% certain' statement. (Though even Orde pointed out that this was intelligence, rather than evidence. To prove money laundering--which is very difficult--you must be able to directly link specific individuals to an unbroken chain of evidence leading back to the original crime.)
Still, I personally regard Gerry Adams as both too smart and too prudent to take the kind of risks Moloney attributes to him. But the real truth of the matter is shrouded in so many layers of secrecy that I won't ever presume to know.
A lot of which people? No one who follows Irish politics could possibly avoid realising this fact! Certainly the Irish press aren't missing it; they acknowledge it constantly, and Moloney's article is no exception.
That's a disingenuous summary at best. The IRA stopped trying to cover up the murder (and threaten the many witnesses) only after McCartney's family had the courage to go public with their demands that the men who killed him be brought to justice. And it's not like the IRA reported those three men to the police, nor did Sinn Fein encourage them to--in fact, SF refused to publicly encourage anyone to go to the police, because God forbid anyone get the impression that they were legitimating the police. Anyways, no-one on either side believes those three men were the only ones involved in the murder, let alone the cover-up.
