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Old 01-12-2002, 01:39 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl:

Free speech rules and should be fiercely protected, even in an online public fan forum.

Well said, beautifully, eloquently, and damn sexy.. I think that is what we all are trying to express, and you Joyfulgirl Hit it on the Nail.. perforated.. head.

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Old 01-12-2002, 06:20 PM   #47
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Originally posted by Lemonite:

Ah, my dear Salome.. I expected more from you, that's a cheap way to make a point..
well, I thought your post was worthy of it

you are wrong

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Old 01-12-2002, 06:30 PM   #48
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Yeah now can we let this thread die please.

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Old 01-12-2002, 06:42 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Salome:
Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite:

Ah, my dear Salome.. I expected more from you, that's a cheap way to make a point..
well, I thought your post was worthy of it

you are wrong

Maybe it was because you didn't know what our American slang was.. I guess I should have converted it to Dutch.

Anyways, suggestions cannot be either right or wrong.. But I'm glad you do not have standards of expulsion in terms of various language 'nicknames', or the intro of topics.. Sal Congrats, Kudos, and Healthy Living, we appreciate your hard work.


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[This message has been edited by Lemonite (edited 01-12-2002).]
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Old 01-12-2002, 09:23 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony:
Also, I don't think that homosexuality is something inherent, I think its more to do with the circumstances of life that have shaped you as 'a person', its not something you are born with.
Since it was brought up, anthropologists have brought up that they believe that, in the study of non-Western, isolated tribal cultures that have no inherent sexual taboos in their culture, that man is inherently bisexual.

But it is difficult to truly pinpoint. The "origin" of homosexuality is just as much of an enigma, scientifically, as the origin of heterosexuality. People naively think it has to do with testicles and ovaries and XX/XY chromosomes, but I believe that there is more to it than is currently known in science. Sexuality, to me, is probably the greatest enigma in science, perhaps with the origin of personality being second.

Regardless, I do not think that one's sexuality is a choice. If it is due to genetics, then, obviously, one has no choice. If it isn't due to genetics, that doesn't automatically point to "choice." Look at language, for instance. Did we choose to speak our native tongue, which is, in my case, English? In addition, if English was determined to be evil tomorrow, I still couldn't forget it.

Oh, but the origin of all this homophobia is clear, and all one had to do was to look at both tribal cultures and read thousands of years of mythology. Under more primitive tribal societies, they were matriarchal (women were seen as the mystical bearers of life--"children") and homosexuals were seen as, interestingly enough, "sent from God," actually. At the bottom of this hierarchy was the heterosexual male. Somewhere in time thousands of years ago, this societal structure was overthrown, and, to coincide with this societal coup, men created myths that painted the former structure as contrary to nature. Women were now, "inherently," subservient to men, due to the wording of the creation myths, life came from men and women only bore the "waters" to incubate life, and homosexuals were, instead of being "sent from God," were now "contrary to God." Obviously, as time passed on, people only knew of the creation myths, which they now believed to be the truth, and forgot the former society. Hence, the rise of patriarchal society.

Regardless, it appears that most people's minds are already made up on the subject.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 01-12-2002, 09:35 PM   #51
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And, to succinctly answer TheU2's "Gay Voice" question, it is both nature and environment. Some gay people do grow up with higher pitched voices, but a lot don't.

However, the media has painted it as what every gay person sounds like, so a lot of gay people try and emulate this because they feel they have to to be accepted within the gay community. They are already rejected by the rest of society, so, in a way, by being "more gay" than other gay people, they think they can attract more attention amongst their peers. It's the same principle as how, for instance, sorority members all seem to dress and act the same.

However, I can assure you, the "gay voice" types do not constitute most homosexuals. When I was in the U.K. and I visited a couple bars, most there were just like any heterosexual. You probably, if walking down a street, would never know the difference. In fact, in Edinburgh, I was surprised to see the straightest, hottest model type in one, but the media is never one to stray from stereotypes.

According to the media, all gays are effeminate, all lesbians are butch (minus the "hot" ones that are simply objects for straight men to oogle over), all straight women hate men secretly, all straight men are stupid, bad fathers, and are incomplete without their wife to act as their mother, all blacks live in ghettos, all Hispanics are stupid and don't know English, all Southerners are dumb and religious fanatics, and all teens are inherently rebellious and sex obsessed. There is such a thing as "a grain of truth" in stereotypes, but stereotypes, by definition, make that little grain represent the entire pie.

Unfortunately, people, without realizing it, tend to emulate these media misconceptions as societal expectations. And that is the conundrum, but is a testament to the power of mass media on people's minds.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 01-12-2002, 09:43 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
It's the same principle as how, for instance, sorority members all seem to dress and act the same.
I suppose that you are only illustrating this as a stereotype, and not an absolute/accurate truth, right?
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Old 01-12-2002, 09:57 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama:
I suppose that you are only illustrating this as a stereotype, and not an absolute/accurate truth, right?
Yes, I am illustrating this as a stereotype. I knew some very bright and interesting sorority members, not to mention some very bright and interesting fraternity members, but I also saw how they reacted as a group at times, which conformed to the media stereotypes. That's what I find interesting.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 01-12-2002, 10:12 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:

It's the same principle as how, for instance, sorority members all seem to act the same.


Yah.. they're all ho's.


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~Writing this with a Brother who is dating a Girl belonging in a sorority, a Best friend of my Girlfriend, while floozy at times and belonging into a sorority, is intelligent and opinionated.. But It's a hell of a coincidence that they both wear the tiny tiny clothes, place a premium on going out and flirting et al.. Ach.. Achk.. Geezus. I can't even believe we've now got to justify ourselves..


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Old 01-12-2002, 10:30 PM   #55
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well said, melon.

i (read: the opinions of me, myself, and i; and no one else) think all forms of sexuality may be with you when you're born, or you just sort of develop into them. going along with your suggestion that men are born bisexual, could explain heterosexuality. a baby grows up and sees their parents, two people who (hopefully) love each other, and realise it's the "right" thing.
but, like i said, since there's been no real scientific proof for either side (nothing i would really consider, that is) i'll just sit on my seat right here on the fence.

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Old 01-12-2002, 11:26 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
how they reacted as a group at times,...conformed to the media stereotypes.
As with any group, the at times part is what is key.
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Old 01-13-2002, 03:34 AM   #57
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I missed all of this, this week was exam week for me so I had to concern myself with other academic related activities for a large part of my time (envious?) but I will just contribute by stating that I back the decisions which were made, and I think that there are other factors involved here.

It would be nice if mods could please everyone, but ofcourse that's not the case, and that's ok... because when in life is this possible anyway, really?

So all we ask is that everyone has a bit of understanding as to all of this when a thread is closed or a banishment is decided on, or whatever other administrative actions take place. I don't think elvis would allow the managment of his website to ever reach a point of being unreasonable... he is actually a pretty decent guy (shocked?)
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Old 01-14-2002, 05:21 AM   #58
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I don't know if this is the right place to put this, but since I can't respond to the original thread, I just wanted to apologize to TheU2 for misreading one of his statements. Sorry!
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