Silvio Berlusconi, is he the worst head of state?

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i have been hearing about this guy for months.

I was corresponding with an Italian mucician last year that would rant on and on about Silvio Berlusconi.



1berlusconi.jpg


MEPs' fury at Berlusconi's Nazi jibe

Agencies
Wednesday July 2, 2003


Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi at the European parliament in Strasbourg. Photograph: AP

The controversial Italian prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, today assumed the EU council presidency, and immediately provoked furious controversy saying a German MEP should take a film role as a Nazi concentration camp leader.
Mr Berlusconi was giving a speech inaugurating his country's six-month presidency of the EU to assembled MEPs, but his plans for Italy's tenure of the union were completely overshadowed by a comment made to a German socialist MEP, Martin Schulz, in the subsequent question-and-answer session. In response to a question from Mr Schulz alleging a conflict of interest between his political office and his extensive Italian media interests, Mr Berlusconi replied:

"Mr Schulz, I know there is in Italy a man producing a film on the Nazi concentration camps. I would like to suggest you for the role of leader. You'd be perfect."

MEPs responded to the jibe with jeers and shouts, thumping their desks in dismay and leaving the Strasbourg chamber in disarray for several moments.

Mr Berlusconi then refused to withdraw the remark when given the opportunity by Pat Cox, the parliament's president. Mr Cox expressed regret at the offence caused to Mr Schulz and said he believed it would be appropriate "to correct the record in this regard".

Mr Schultz responded by saying: "My respect for the victims of fascism will not permit me to deal with that kind of claim at all.

"It is very difficult for me to accept that a council president [Mr Berlusconi] should be exercising this office at all when he comes out with this kind of statement."

Mr Berlusconi then attempted to play down the incident, saying his remark had been "ironic" and accusing Mr Schulz of being offensive: "He was gesticulating and he used a tone of voice which is not acceptable in a parliament," he said.

During the debate after his speech, critical MEPs had repeatedly questioned the media mogul's ability to represent the EU, with the Green leader, Monica Frassoni, comparing him to Attila the Hun. Mr Berlusconi was apparently managing to maintain his cool, until snapping at the question from Mr Schultz.

Even as Mr Berlusconi rose to address the European parliament, seven Green MEPs protested, raising placards reading: "Everybody is equal under the law" - in reference to concerns that the Italian leader used his political influence to sidestep legal action over his business dealings.

Mr Berlusconi shrugged off the protest as he began his speech laying out the priorities of Italy's six-month presidency of the EU, promising to work to improve ties with the US following the Iraq war, and to involve Europe in the search for Middle East peace.

He pledged to press as EU president for the staging of a wider Middle East peace conference, offering Sicily as the venue, and again offered his support to the Israeli-Palestinian peace plan.

"Our presidency, along with the US, the Russian Federation and the UN, will work to support the road map so that we can work out a timetable and the means for the launching of an international peace conference," he said.

Mr Berlusconi also promised to use his tenure of the EU's rotating presidency to complete negotiations on a constitution for an expanded EU, improve trans-Atlantic relations, invest in EU-wide upgrades of transport networks and combat illegal immigration.

"The Italian presidency will do all in its power ... to take responsible decisions on our future," he told the 626-member assembly.

The Italian premier has been involved in a slew of legal investigations, including accusations he bribed a judge in the 1980s to sway a business deal in his favour.

The bribery trial was suspended on Monday - the day before Italy took over the EU presidency - after Mr Berlusconi's allies in parliament passed an immunity law that spared the premier from prosecution while in office.

Italy's richest man, Mr Berlusconi controls a $7.8bn (?4.7bn) media empire that includes the nation's largest private television broadcaster, Mediaset. Together with state-run RAI, he directly or indirectly controls about 90% of Italy's television market, leading critics to charge he has too much influence over information that he can use for his political and personal gain.

Graham Watson, leader of the Liberal Democrats in the European parliament, condemned Mr Berlusconi's comments as words which "debase the presidency of the [EU] council and offend Europe".
 
ah politics. politics and money seem to be wedded the world over, methinks.

those "nazi" comments were definitely out of line...and don't strike me as "ironic". :tsk:
 
OMG, I have in-laws in Italy who can't stand Berlusconi. They regularly go to demonstrations against him. My niece from Italy is coming to visit us tomorrow, and of course I'm going to ask her about those demonstrations. She goes to them. That remark about the Nazis is out of line. He sounds like a :censored: to me.
 
He is definitely not the worst head of State. He is very rich of course and so the slightest improper word or move by him and he is casts as the devil by many liberals. But for the most part Berlusconi is helping Italy to modernize itself by reforming the business and economic laws and structures in Italy. Of course the socialist and communist in Italy do not like that, but the results of his work have been a huge fall in Italian unemployment from around 14% to 8%. 8% is the lowest unemployment figure in Italy's history. It is also in line with the European Union average after decades of high double digit unemployment, sometimes over 20% in the south.

My good friend from Italy and her family have supported Berlusconi. She is about to become a commercial lawyer and recognizes the need for some of the reforms that Berlusconi has enacted. She is from the Milan area which is the business capital of Italy.
 
My maternal grandmother is Italian (from Venice, descendant of the famed Cornaro family). We still have family and acquaintances in Firenze and none of them can stand the guy.

And no, they are not "socialists and communists" either.
 
Anitrim,

"My maternal grandmother is Italian (from Venice, descendant of the famed Cornaro family). We still have family and acquaintances in Firenze and none of them can stand the guy."

"And no, they are not "socialists and communists" either."

Great! I stand by my friends in Milan and the majority of Italians who elected Berlusconi. He has produced Italy's lowest unemployment rate in history. Change and modernization can be difficult for everyone. But clearly the results are very positive and Italians will indeed re-elect him.
 
STING2 said:
I stand by my friends in Milan and the majority of Italians who elected Berlusconi.

Stand all you want. I just didn't understand why you had to immediately go name dropping the socialists and communists into the equation for shock value. That's all.
 
That's fine, Sting, but I'm with anitram, people who don't like the guy aren't necessarily communists or socialists. My in-laws live in Rome but originally hail from Forli. I think that Berlusconi is the kind of leader that people either love or hate. There's no in-between. I'm definitely asking my niece about those demonstrations.
 
I love the way anyone who dislikes Berlusconi is a "socialist or communist". :laugh: And by the way, it's not because he's rich that left-wing people tend to dislike him, it's because he's a terrible leader who makes decisions in the interests of himself and other super-rich individuals.

I assume you'll be condemning Mr. Berlusconi for comparing a German MEP to a Nazi, STING? After all, you did have an extremely strong reaction to any post which could be construed as comparing Bush to a Nazi.

*Fizz.
 
I have some friends (conserveratives, liberals, socialists, greens - almost any flavor) and the vast mayority can't stand this guy because most law-changes his made were to protect him from lawenforcement. This guy did a lot of illigal things and he continues to do so.

He uses the "me or the communists card" as long as he is in politics. Some people love him because they love a strong leader a kind of new "King" for the country. For me that guy is MUCH worse then the austrian politican Haider.

Here are the unemployment rates (unemployement compared by the ILO rules) from some EU countries (for February 2003):

Luxemburg 2,8
Netherlands 3,4 (Jan)
Austria 4,2
Ireland 4,5
Denmark 5,0
Sweden 5,1
Portugal 6,7
Belgum 7,7
Deutschland 8,7
Finnland 8,8
Italy 9,0 (January)
France 9,1
Spain 11,9

Italy had the 9% last year too (which could be a historical low, i can't remember anything lower at least), their economy grew last year by 0.4%, in February 2002 the rate of price increases was 2,5% in Feb. 2003 it was 2,6% (both times compared to the month before).
In the South of italy there is still 20% Unemployment where in the north there is almost no unemployment (like in the years before). the debts of the country are now 106,7% of the BIP (which could be a historical high also)

Almost all Media is controlled by berlusconi now, directly (personal owner) or indirect (government controlled.He bought some of the critical newspapers and threw out the journalists he didn't like.

Klaus
 
Last edited:
To the last article: i was talking about almost all media in italy of course, not in general.

So some more quotes to the latest scandal of mr. berluscoini.

Mr. Schroeders statement to Mr Berlusconis Speech:

"I determine here: This comparison is completely inacceptable in contents and form a derailing. I expect that the Italian Prime Minister apologizes in all form for this comparison."
Gianfranco Fini (chief of the fascistic rooted NA), the 2nd man after Berlusconi said that Berlusconis statement was not excusable.

Carlo Azeglio Ciampi called Mr. Berlusconi in his office and media expects that he condemns what Mr. Berlusconi said.

To Mr. Berlusconis character: he was accosed of perjures, tax fraud, bribing and falsification of balance sheets.
Most of the trials ended because of statute-barred prosecution or because his party changed the law and made the things he did legal.

For example: you don't get any fine in Italy now if you fake your balance sheets unless you fake them more than 5% of the business volume.
He made another law so that it's easier for the defendand to go to another court.
So a) he can go to a judge he likes and b) he can change the courtrooms for so many times that the things he did are too long ago to be punished.

Klaus
 
I do not know what he is like as a leader, but I do find his remarks both inappropriate, and actually funny considering what side of the war the Italians were on under Moussalini...
 
He needs to apologize for those remarks. They are insulting to an entire nation. He's not my leader but he strikes me as a :censored:. Just my purple tuppence's worth.
 
Not the worst head of state at all, though certainly up there. His comment was absolutely disgusting. Then again, ever since Bush was elected, I've come to expect stupid comments from world leaders.

Ant.
 
Klaus,

Here are the latest unemployment figures from the June 28th to July 4th issue of the economist.

Australia 6% (May)
Austria 4.3% (May)
Belgium 11.4% (May)
Britain 5.1% (April)
Canada 7.8% (May)
Denmark 6% (May)
France 9.3% (April)
Germany 10.7% (May)
ITALY 8.8% (April)
Japan 5.4% (April)
Netherlands 5.3% (May)
Spain 11.4% (April)
Sweden 4.2% (May)
Switzerland 3.6% (May)
United States 6.1 % (May) now 6.4% as of news on July 3.
EURO AREA 8.8% (April)


As you can see, Italian unemployment is now 8.8%, the lowest Italian umemployment rate ever. This huge reduction in unemployment has happened while Berlusconi has been president.
 
Anitram,


"Stand all you want. I just didn't understand why you had to immediately go name dropping the socialists and communists into the equation for shock value. That's all."

Ummmm, their political parties in Italy with hundreds of thousands if not millions of members. "Shock value", "name dropping"? Its not a shock to be consider a socialist or a communists in Italy. In fact, one of my good friend's teachers from highschool is a communists. She was a history teacher and my friend and her friends did not like her biased views, but the fact that she was a communists was no shock.
 
FizzingWhizzbees,


"I love the way anyone who dislikes Berlusconi is a "socialist or communist"."

I'd like you to read what I actually said since you obviously didn't.

"But for the most part Berlusconi is helping Italy to modernize itself by reforming the business and economic laws and structures in Italy. Of course the socialist and communist in Italy do not like that, but the results of his work have been a huge fall in Italian unemployment from around 14% to 8%."

No where did I say that ANYONE who dislikes Berlusconi is a Communist or a Socialist. In fact, all I said was that Socialist and Communist disliked his REFORMS, not Berlusconi himself, although I suspect many do.

"it's not because he's rich that left-wing people tend to dislike him, it's because he's a terrible leader who makes decisions in the interests of himself and other super-rich individuals."

The left was in power before Berlusconi and were voted out because of all the problems. Berlusconi has brought much needed reform to the country and has given Italy is lowest unemployment in history. These are facts that cannot be ignored.

These facts and the wishes of millions of Italians who successfully elected Berlusconi as their president should be noted and respected.

"I assume you'll be condemning Mr. Berlusconi for comparing a German MEP to a Nazi, STING? After all, you did have an extremely strong reaction to any post which could be construed as comparing Bush to a Nazi."

I don't know anything about the German MEP so I can't really say. But I'd assume that he is not a Nazi at all and that Berlusconi should indeed apologize.
 
STING2 said:
Its not a shock to be consider a socialist or a communists in Italy. In fact, one of my good friend's teachers from highschool is a communists.

In fact, my family is Italian! For crying out loud, am I banging my head against the wall?

Forget about the fact there was Italian spoken in my home, forget about the fact that something like 30+ of the Cornaro palaces in Italy belonged to my family prior to nationalization, forget about the fact the Vatican is littered with artistic treasures bequeathed by them, all of which you can read about here if you so desire. It's not about tooting my horn but about you not having to speak down to me like I am 5 and don't know what it is and is not like in Italy. I know. You think I have not been there a zillion times? Yet I still find your categorization of Berlusconi's supporters not to only be false, but inciteful. And you can list 47 people in Italy you know, I will still disagree with you on what you said.
 
anitram,

I know one thing, if you took the time to accurately read what I said, when I mentioned the Socialist and Communist, you would realize that was not categorizing ANYONE! Here is the quote:

"But for the most part Berlusconi is helping Italy to modernize itself by reforming the business and economic laws and structures in Italy. Of course the socialist and communist in Italy do not like that, but the results of his work have been a huge fall in Italian unemployment from around 14% to 8%."

These are specific groups in Italy so I can't understand how you could accuse me of catagorizing anyone. I never said all people who oppose Berlusconi are apart of those groups. I stated that those groups are unhappy with Berlusconi's reforms. Do you think that is wrong?

"It's not about tooting my horn but about you not having to speak down to me like I am 5 and don't know what it is and is not like in Italy. I know. You think I have not been there a zillion times?"

What ever your connection to Italy is, it does not change the facts that I have stated. In addition, I never suggested that you had never been there to Italy or did not have Italian heritage. I never spoke to you in anyway that you were some how lacking in knowledge about anything Italian.

What I did do was correct something that I believe is incorrect. There is no "Shock value" from using terms like Socialist or Communist in Italy. Their political parties and well defined groups in Italy. No more shocking than refering to Democrats, Republicans, Green Party, independents or any other party in the USA.
 
STING2, most of the italians, including many of my good friends in Milan, would laugh their ass off about your comments. Your statistical data are not expressing much, if you consider that many italians have moved from being officially employed to being freely employed, wghich means a big change in social structures. In addition, the social welfare system was cut down (like in all Middle Europe, starting from about 95?). Berlusconi has also failed to improve the general organisation level in Italy - in fact, it is still not unusual that trains are 4 hrs late.

Many people regret to have voted for Berlusconi. I do not think he will be re-elected, but what do I know.

Many italians think Berlusconi has strong ties to the Mafia. Speaking about Mafia and going back in history, it may be interesting that, without American support after WW II, the Cosa Nostra would not have survived. In fact, the Cosa Nostra helped American troops to land in Sicily. In return for that, they were allowed to take regional political positions in post-war Italy; considering that under Mussolini they were nearly wiped out.

You may be able to understand some italian political history if you read Alessandro Silj: Malpaese. Criminalita, corruzione e politica nell ?Italia 1943-1994.

It is an interesting read, and most Italians take the past into account when they consider the present political state.

Maybe you have also heard about Gladio.

I know this is off-topic, but that?s just to explain why many Italians would do a friendly joke when they hear phrases like "But for the most part Berlusconi is helping Italy to modernize itself by reforming the business and economic laws and structures in Italy"

If you ever go to Italy and talk to the people on the streets, you may be surprised that most of them think Berlusconi is a criminal (and that most politicians are criminals).
 
hiphop, that's exactly what my niece was telling me about Berlusconi tonight. A whole slew of Italians who voted for him think they screwed up. What a :censored:.
 
HIPHOP,

My friend from Italy is about to become a Lawyer. She graduates this year from the University of Boccini and is one of the top Law students if not the top student to graduate this year. What she finds pathetic and funny are the laws in Italy that have kept Italy in the dark ages and from developing into a modern country.

"STING2, most of the italians, including many of my good friends in Milan, would laugh their ass off about your comments."

I know a few people that would laugh uncontrollably at your comments as well.

"If you ever go to Italy and talk to the people on the streets, you may be surprised that most of them think Berlusconi is a criminal (and that most politicians are criminals)."

In fact most thought Berlusconi was a criminal before the election and they still voted for him. Of course, his shady past is not what I'm talking about here and certainly not the reason Italians voted for him in the first place. I would not be surprised if many Italians think Berlusconi is a %$&#*. Thats what Italians think of most politicians in power anyways. What is clear is that Berlusconi has done better than the "left" did before him.
 
verte76,


"A whole slew of Italians who voted for him think they screwed up. What a ."

Well, its not like Berlusconi was some new Kid on the Block when he ran for president. I'd argue people knew what they were getting when they voted for him. Which goes to tell you how bad the "Left" has done in Italy.
 
STING2 said:
Klaus,

Here are the latest unemployment figures from the June 28th to July 4th issue of the economist.

Australia 6% (May)
Austria 4.3% (May)
Belgium 11.4% (May)
Britain 5.1% (April)
Canada 7.8% (May)
Denmark 6% (May)
France 9.3% (April)
Germany 10.7% (May)
ITALY 8.8% (April)
Japan 5.4% (April)
Netherlands 5.3% (May)
Spain 11.4% (April)
Sweden 4.2% (May)
Switzerland 3.6% (May)
United States 6.1 % (May) now 6.4% as of news on July 3.
EURO AREA 8.8% (April)


As you can see, Italian unemployment is now 8.8%, the lowest Italian umemployment rate ever. This huge reduction in unemployment has happened while Berlusconi has been president.

I still think that America's unemployment figures are skewed. But, after all, who needs results when you can have fuzzy numbers?

It also certainly doesn't comment on the quality of jobs either, which is more than unfortunate.

Melon
 
STING2 said:
HIPHOP,

My friend from Italy is about to become a Lawyer. She graduates this year from the University of Boccini and is one of the top Law students if not the top student to graduate this year. What she finds pathetic and funny are the laws in Italy that have kept Italy in the dark ages and from developing into a modern country.

"STING2, most of the italians, including many of my good friends in Milan, would laugh their ass off about your comments."

I know a few people that would laugh uncontrollably at your comments as well.

"If you ever go to Italy and talk to the people on the streets, you may be surprised that most of them think Berlusconi is a criminal (and that most politicians are criminals)."

In fact most thought Berlusconi was a criminal before the election and they still voted for him. Of course, his shady past is not what I'm talking about here and certainly not the reason Italians voted for him in the first place. I would not be surprised if many Italians think Berlusconi is a %$&#*. Thats what Italians think of most politicians in power anyways. What is clear is that Berlusconi has done better than the "left" did before him.

Congratulations to your friend. I do think Italy is a modern country though. I would not say it is still in the "dark ages", but considering that this might be the expression of an italian, I do understand what is meant. Italians have such a nice way of expressing their thoughts!

Tell me what is so funny about my comments. It is always good to laugh, and I do not feel disrespected, but I would like to know for what the few people who you know would laugh. :)

I agree that italians think above of most politicians in power, regardless if "left" or "right". I also agree the "ulivo" could have done a lot better. Anyway, if you talk about the past, take into account that for about a quarter of a century, the italian conservatives "Democrazia Cristiana" singlehandedly ruled this country. The political history is also interesting because the juridical system of the last ten, fifteen years has proved high poltical efficiency, compared to other West European countries. Remember "tangentopoli". Also remember Italy was one of the first states to define what organized crime means juridically.
 
Melon,

Well the UN development Index as of 2002 which estimates standard of living around the world has the USA at #6. Only Sweden, Norway, Belgium, Australia, and Canada have a better Standard of living than the USA. I know that does fit with the democrats plan to cast the USA as a shithole because of Bush's policies, but those are the facts.
 
STING2 said:
Which goes to tell you how bad the "Left" has done in Italy.

If you take into account that, in the last fifteen years, the government has changed every two years (often between "left" and "right") your argument is meaningless.
 
HIPHOP,

"If you take into account that, in the last fifteen years, the government has changed every two years (often between "left" and "right") your argument is meaningless."

Hey, I'm only expressing my good friends disgust with the administration prior to Burlusconi. Try telling her that her opinion is meaningless.
 

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