Silvio Berlusconi, is he the worst head of state? - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

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Old 07-03-2003, 01:49 PM   #16
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Not the worst head of state at all, though certainly up there. His comment was absolutely disgusting. Then again, ever since Bush was elected, I've come to expect stupid comments from world leaders.

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Old 07-03-2003, 02:19 PM   #17
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Klaus,

Here are the latest unemployment figures from the June 28th to July 4th issue of the economist.

Australia 6% (May)
Austria 4.3% (May)
Belgium 11.4% (May)
Britain 5.1% (April)
Canada 7.8% (May)
Denmark 6% (May)
France 9.3% (April)
Germany 10.7% (May)
ITALY 8.8% (April)
Japan 5.4% (April)
Netherlands 5.3% (May)
Spain 11.4% (April)
Sweden 4.2% (May)
Switzerland 3.6% (May)
United States 6.1 % (May) now 6.4% as of news on July 3.
EURO AREA 8.8% (April)


As you can see, Italian unemployment is now 8.8%, the lowest Italian umemployment rate ever. This huge reduction in unemployment has happened while Berlusconi has been president.
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Old 07-03-2003, 02:27 PM   #18
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Anitram,


"Stand all you want. I just didn't understand why you had to immediately go name dropping the socialists and communists into the equation for shock value. That's all."

Ummmm, their political parties in Italy with hundreds of thousands if not millions of members. "Shock value", "name dropping"? Its not a shock to be consider a socialist or a communists in Italy. In fact, one of my good friend's teachers from highschool is a communists. She was a history teacher and my friend and her friends did not like her biased views, but the fact that she was a communists was no shock.
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Old 07-03-2003, 02:58 PM   #19
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FizzingWhizzbees,


"I love the way anyone who dislikes Berlusconi is a "socialist or communist"."

I'd like you to read what I actually said since you obviously didn't.

"But for the most part Berlusconi is helping Italy to modernize itself by reforming the business and economic laws and structures in Italy. Of course the socialist and communist in Italy do not like that, but the results of his work have been a huge fall in Italian unemployment from around 14% to 8%."

No where did I say that ANYONE who dislikes Berlusconi is a Communist or a Socialist. In fact, all I said was that Socialist and Communist disliked his REFORMS, not Berlusconi himself, although I suspect many do.

"it's not because he's rich that left-wing people tend to dislike him, it's because he's a terrible leader who makes decisions in the interests of himself and other super-rich individuals."

The left was in power before Berlusconi and were voted out because of all the problems. Berlusconi has brought much needed reform to the country and has given Italy is lowest unemployment in history. These are facts that cannot be ignored.

These facts and the wishes of millions of Italians who successfully elected Berlusconi as their president should be noted and respected.

"I assume you'll be condemning Mr. Berlusconi for comparing a German MEP to a Nazi, STING? After all, you did have an extremely strong reaction to any post which could be construed as comparing Bush to a Nazi."

I don't know anything about the German MEP so I can't really say. But I'd assume that he is not a Nazi at all and that Berlusconi should indeed apologize.
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Old 07-03-2003, 04:43 PM   #20
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Originally posted by STING2
Its not a shock to be consider a socialist or a communists in Italy. In fact, one of my good friend's teachers from highschool is a communists.
In fact, my family is Italian! For crying out loud, am I banging my head against the wall?

Forget about the fact there was Italian spoken in my home, forget about the fact that something like 30+ of the Cornaro palaces in Italy belonged to my family prior to nationalization, forget about the fact the Vatican is littered with artistic treasures bequeathed by them, all of which you can read about here if you so desire. It's not about tooting my horn but about you not having to speak down to me like I am 5 and don't know what it is and is not like in Italy. I know. You think I have not been there a zillion times? Yet I still find your categorization of Berlusconi's supporters not to only be false, but inciteful. And you can list 47 people in Italy you know, I will still disagree with you on what you said.
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Old 07-03-2003, 05:08 PM   #21
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anitram,

I know one thing, if you took the time to accurately read what I said, when I mentioned the Socialist and Communist, you would realize that was not categorizing ANYONE! Here is the quote:

"But for the most part Berlusconi is helping Italy to modernize itself by reforming the business and economic laws and structures in Italy. Of course the socialist and communist in Italy do not like that, but the results of his work have been a huge fall in Italian unemployment from around 14% to 8%."

These are specific groups in Italy so I can't understand how you could accuse me of catagorizing anyone. I never said all people who oppose Berlusconi are apart of those groups. I stated that those groups are unhappy with Berlusconi's reforms. Do you think that is wrong?

"It's not about tooting my horn but about you not having to speak down to me like I am 5 and don't know what it is and is not like in Italy. I know. You think I have not been there a zillion times?"

What ever your connection to Italy is, it does not change the facts that I have stated. In addition, I never suggested that you had never been there to Italy or did not have Italian heritage. I never spoke to you in anyway that you were some how lacking in knowledge about anything Italian.

What I did do was correct something that I believe is incorrect. There is no "Shock value" from using terms like Socialist or Communist in Italy. Their political parties and well defined groups in Italy. No more shocking than refering to Democrats, Republicans, Green Party, independents or any other party in the USA.
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Old 07-03-2003, 06:48 PM   #22
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STING2, most of the italians, including many of my good friends in Milan, would laugh their ass off about your comments. Your statistical data are not expressing much, if you consider that many italians have moved from being officially employed to being freely employed, wghich means a big change in social structures. In addition, the social welfare system was cut down (like in all Middle Europe, starting from about 95´). Berlusconi has also failed to improve the general organisation level in Italy - in fact, it is still not unusual that trains are 4 hrs late.

Many people regret to have voted for Berlusconi. I do not think he will be re-elected, but what do I know.

Many italians think Berlusconi has strong ties to the Mafia. Speaking about Mafia and going back in history, it may be interesting that, without American support after WW II, the Cosa Nostra would not have survived. In fact, the Cosa Nostra helped American troops to land in Sicily. In return for that, they were allowed to take regional political positions in post-war Italy; considering that under Mussolini they were nearly wiped out.

You may be able to understand some italian political history if you read Alessandro Silj: Malpaese. Criminalita, corruzione e politica nell ´Italia 1943-1994.

It is an interesting read, and most Italians take the past into account when they consider the present political state.

Maybe you have also heard about Gladio.

I know this is off-topic, but that´s just to explain why many Italians would do a friendly joke when they hear phrases like "But for the most part Berlusconi is helping Italy to modernize itself by reforming the business and economic laws and structures in Italy"

If you ever go to Italy and talk to the people on the streets, you may be surprised that most of them think Berlusconi is a criminal (and that most politicians are criminals).
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Old 07-03-2003, 09:30 PM   #23
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hiphop, that's exactly what my niece was telling me about Berlusconi tonight. A whole slew of Italians who voted for him think they screwed up. What a .
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Old 07-04-2003, 12:59 PM   #24
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HIPHOP,

My friend from Italy is about to become a Lawyer. She graduates this year from the University of Boccini and is one of the top Law students if not the top student to graduate this year. What she finds pathetic and funny are the laws in Italy that have kept Italy in the dark ages and from developing into a modern country.

"STING2, most of the italians, including many of my good friends in Milan, would laugh their ass off about your comments."

I know a few people that would laugh uncontrollably at your comments as well.

"If you ever go to Italy and talk to the people on the streets, you may be surprised that most of them think Berlusconi is a criminal (and that most politicians are criminals)."

In fact most thought Berlusconi was a criminal before the election and they still voted for him. Of course, his shady past is not what I'm talking about here and certainly not the reason Italians voted for him in the first place. I would not be surprised if many Italians think Berlusconi is a %$&#*. Thats what Italians think of most politicians in power anyways. What is clear is that Berlusconi has done better than the "left" did before him.
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Old 07-04-2003, 01:03 PM   #25
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verte76,


"A whole slew of Italians who voted for him think they screwed up. What a ."

Well, its not like Berlusconi was some new Kid on the Block when he ran for president. I'd argue people knew what they were getting when they voted for him. Which goes to tell you how bad the "Left" has done in Italy.
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Old 07-04-2003, 01:10 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Klaus,

Here are the latest unemployment figures from the June 28th to July 4th issue of the economist.

Australia 6% (May)
Austria 4.3% (May)
Belgium 11.4% (May)
Britain 5.1% (April)
Canada 7.8% (May)
Denmark 6% (May)
France 9.3% (April)
Germany 10.7% (May)
ITALY 8.8% (April)
Japan 5.4% (April)
Netherlands 5.3% (May)
Spain 11.4% (April)
Sweden 4.2% (May)
Switzerland 3.6% (May)
United States 6.1 % (May) now 6.4% as of news on July 3.
EURO AREA 8.8% (April)


As you can see, Italian unemployment is now 8.8%, the lowest Italian umemployment rate ever. This huge reduction in unemployment has happened while Berlusconi has been president.
I still think that America's unemployment figures are skewed. But, after all, who needs results when you can have fuzzy numbers?

It also certainly doesn't comment on the quality of jobs either, which is more than unfortunate.

Melon
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Old 07-04-2003, 01:15 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
HIPHOP,

My friend from Italy is about to become a Lawyer. She graduates this year from the University of Boccini and is one of the top Law students if not the top student to graduate this year. What she finds pathetic and funny are the laws in Italy that have kept Italy in the dark ages and from developing into a modern country.

"STING2, most of the italians, including many of my good friends in Milan, would laugh their ass off about your comments."

I know a few people that would laugh uncontrollably at your comments as well.

"If you ever go to Italy and talk to the people on the streets, you may be surprised that most of them think Berlusconi is a criminal (and that most politicians are criminals)."

In fact most thought Berlusconi was a criminal before the election and they still voted for him. Of course, his shady past is not what I'm talking about here and certainly not the reason Italians voted for him in the first place. I would not be surprised if many Italians think Berlusconi is a %$&#*. Thats what Italians think of most politicians in power anyways. What is clear is that Berlusconi has done better than the "left" did before him.
Congratulations to your friend. I do think Italy is a modern country though. I would not say it is still in the "dark ages", but considering that this might be the expression of an italian, I do understand what is meant. Italians have such a nice way of expressing their thoughts!

Tell me what is so funny about my comments. It is always good to laugh, and I do not feel disrespected, but I would like to know for what the few people who you know would laugh.

I agree that italians think above of most politicians in power, regardless if "left" or "right". I also agree the "ulivo" could have done a lot better. Anyway, if you talk about the past, take into account that for about a quarter of a century, the italian conservatives "Democrazia Cristiana" singlehandedly ruled this country. The political history is also interesting because the juridical system of the last ten, fifteen years has proved high poltical efficiency, compared to other West European countries. Remember "tangentopoli". Also remember Italy was one of the first states to define what organized crime means juridically.
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Old 07-04-2003, 01:18 PM   #28
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Melon,

Well the UN development Index as of 2002 which estimates standard of living around the world has the USA at #6. Only Sweden, Norway, Belgium, Australia, and Canada have a better Standard of living than the USA. I know that does fit with the democrats plan to cast the USA as a shithole because of Bush's policies, but those are the facts.
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Old 07-04-2003, 01:19 PM   #29
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Which goes to tell you how bad the "Left" has done in Italy.
If you take into account that, in the last fifteen years, the government has changed every two years (often between "left" and "right") your argument is meaningless.
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Old 07-04-2003, 01:23 PM   #30
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HIPHOP,

"If you take into account that, in the last fifteen years, the government has changed every two years (often between "left" and "right") your argument is meaningless."

Hey, I'm only expressing my good friends disgust with the administration prior to Burlusconi. Try telling her that her opinion is meaningless.
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