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Old 08-11-2007, 01:03 PM   #61
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Originally posted by martha




I can't wait till you turn in your first paper in college.
I just realized his age.

What is it with the recent influx of teenagers who post bombastic threads here constantly?
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Old 08-11-2007, 01:13 PM   #62
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I can't wait till you turn in your first paper in college.
Thanks for the nice words, but I already have.
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Old 08-11-2007, 01:23 PM   #63
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Originally posted by 2861U2


Yes, and I'm more than happy to donate to some charities, but I dont want the government forcing people or companies to give to the "common good". Charity, as nice and generous as it is, is a voluntary act. It shouldnt be forced to happen. I dont want people taking my money (or anyone else's) and spending it elsewhere for me, as much as I can help it (i.e. dont raise taxes like she would)
Yet you want government to take on other Biblical roles, you have to be consistent.
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Old 08-11-2007, 01:26 PM   #64
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oh, stop bringing logic and reading comprehension into this.......
No, please do, we're still waiting for it from posters like yourself...
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Old 08-11-2007, 01:28 PM   #65
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Generalizations
But that's what you based this thread on.

you crack me up...
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Old 08-11-2007, 01:28 PM   #66
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Now that's a step in the right direction. This is something that I can respond to.

First off, I have a finger to wag myself:

Generalizations

I say that, because you've made quite a logical progression here that's not supported by the evidence or my past writing history here in FYM.

The first generalization that you've made? That because I called out the fact that certain Christians abuse religion for political purposes that I "hate" religion. As for whether you do any of this yourself? It's insignificant. However, the larger pseudo-Christian political machine--Focus on the Family, Catholic League, most megachurches--fit this bill. The Bible is abused to push a Republican agenda, and those same people who think that one cannot possibly be a "liberal" and "Christian" are often the same people who flat-out ignore the liberal parts of the Bible. As far as I'm concerned, those fundamentalist Christians who condemn abortion on one hand and cheer the death penalty on the other are hypocrites. Jesus did not value one form of life over the other, and His association/parables with the unsavory characters of His day--lepers, Samaritans, and, yes, tax collectors--lend credence to that idea.

But I digress.

Secondly, you don't want "Hillary or government taking your money forcefully." Name a realistic situation where this has happened with any president. And, okay, you don't want government money going to charities. So what do you think about Bush's money to "faith-based charities"? Do you disagree with this, or are you willing to overlook the obvious hypocrisy, because you believe in their causes?

Third, again, what you believe yourself is insignificant in comparison to the larger religious-political complex. I have nothing to back up "my hate"? We have, for instance, examples of direct threats from Catholic bishops and the Vatican to excommunicate any politicians that casts votes in favor of laws that go against Catholic teachings.

Additionally, name a self described "family organization" that isn't a mouthpiece for Republican Party ideology. The Christian Coalition, I believe, had its tax-exempt status removed, because it was determined to be nothing but politics. More than one of these organizations have brushed off the fact that there's a clear Biblical disconnect between being "pro-life" and being "pro-death penalty." Or when it comes to issues of "charity," they'll state that government has no business in that.

Frankly, you can't have it both ways. If conservative Christians see government as a tool to spread morality, then you can't ignore the calls for social justice that are also inherent in the gospels. As I see it, "religion" in government is only used to oppress and pass judgment. After all, the underlying reason to say that the U.S. is a "Christian country" is to keep "the undesirables" out. Gays? You're not welcome. Non-Christians? You're not welcome. Liberals, since they've become synonymous with "communism," which is, in itself, synonymous with "disloyalty," "treason," and, hence, all around being "un-American"? You're not welcome. This is the unsavory reality of "political Christianity," which, as far as I'm concerned, has nothing to do at all with true Christianity.

What I wish to clarify is the fact that not all churches and religious organizations fit this description, but far too many churches with conservative beliefs have let their politics corrupt their ministries. I find that to be utterly disgusting.

Thank you for taking the time to elaborate.
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Old 08-11-2007, 01:36 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
I just realized his age.

What is it with the recent influx of teenagers who post bombastic threads here constantly?
I was aware of his age, and, as I see it, it doesn't matter. I grant everyone here equal "respect," which means I will equally rip someone's writings to pieces, if I feel it is warranted.

As for the nature of "bombastic teenagers," in general (not referring to anyone specifically), they tend to have the drive and the idealism, but don't have the substance or the critical thinking. That's why they're eager to post something that is strongly liberal or strongly conservative, with little nuance.

I say this, because that description reminds me of when I was an idealistic, politically-driven teenager. Between 9/11 and the Democrats' pathetic 2004 election campaign, it, for better or for worse, forced me to do a lot of thinking. Now I consider no conviction worth believing unless it can be substantiated with evidence or consistently applied theological/philosophical tenets.
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Old 08-11-2007, 02:18 PM   #68
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Originally posted by 2861U2


Thanks for the nice words, but I already have.
Hopefully your papers have more logic, facts, and reason than your posts do.
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Old 08-11-2007, 03:26 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Now that's a step in the right direction. This is something that I can respond to.

First off, I have a finger to wag myself:

Generalizations

I say that, because you've made quite a logical progression here that's not supported by the evidence or my past writing history here in FYM.

The first generalization that you've made? That because I called out the fact that certain Christians abuse religion for political purposes that I "hate" religion. As for whether you do any of this yourself? It's insignificant. However, the larger pseudo-Christian political machine--Focus on the Family, Catholic League, most megachurches--fit this bill. The Bible is abused to push a Republican agenda, and those same people who think that one cannot possibly be a "liberal" and "Christian" are often the same people who flat-out ignore the liberal parts of the Bible. As far as I'm concerned, those fundamentalist Christians who condemn abortion on one hand and cheer the death penalty on the other are hypocrites. Jesus did not value one form of life over the other, and His association/parables with the unsavory characters of His day--lepers, Samaritans, and, yes, tax collectors--lend credence to that idea.

But I digress.

Secondly, you don't want "Hillary or government taking your money forcefully." Name a realistic situation where this has happened with any president. And, okay, you don't want government money going to charities. So what do you think about Bush's money to "faith-based charities"? Do you disagree with this, or are you willing to overlook the obvious hypocrisy, because you believe in their causes?

Third, again, what you believe yourself is insignificant in comparison to the larger religious-political complex. I have nothing to back up "my hate"? We have, for instance, examples of direct threats from Catholic bishops and the Vatican to excommunicate any politicians that casts votes in favor of laws that go against Catholic teachings.

Additionally, name a self described "family organization" that isn't a mouthpiece for Republican Party ideology. The Christian Coalition, I believe, had its tax-exempt status removed, because it was determined to be nothing but politics. More than one of these organizations have brushed off the fact that there's a clear Biblical disconnect between being "pro-life" and being "pro-death penalty." Or when it comes to issues of "charity," they'll state that government has no business in that.

Frankly, you can't have it both ways. If conservative Christians see government as a tool to spread morality, then you can't ignore the calls for social justice that are also inherent in the gospels. As I see it, "religion" in government is only used to oppress and pass judgment. After all, the underlying reason to say that the U.S. is a "Christian country" is to keep "the undesirables" out. Gays? You're not welcome. Non-Christians? You're not welcome. Liberals, since they've become synonymous with "communism," which is, in itself, synonymous with "disloyalty," "treason," and, hence, all around being "un-American"? You're not welcome. This is the unsavory reality of "political Christianity," which, as far as I'm concerned, has nothing to do at all with true Christianity.

What I wish to clarify is the fact that not all churches and religious organizations fit this description, but far too many churches with conservative beliefs have let their politics corrupt their ministries. I find that to be utterly disgusting.

Thank you for taking the time to elaborate.
I can not even begin to tell you how much I agree with this statement. I've made an argument for every one of these points in debates with friends/family over the past year or so. You wrote it out much more coherently than I could.
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Old 08-12-2007, 09:49 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Didn't Jesus say, "sale all your jewelery and give it to the poor"?
Yes. You've brought up this verse before. However, I think you have to look deeper into what he said. Jesus was responding to a rich man who asked how he could come to know God. Jesus' response hinted that worldly possessions get in the way of spiritual growth and a relationship with God. I dont think this verse is a command for everyone to go sell everything they have.

Having possessions and acquiring wealth is not a sin. It's your attitude about it which can be dangerous. Things like money can be a god to many people. I dont know of many Bible verses that condemn people for having money- it's all about the attitude towards it. Does our heart and loyalty lie with God or with the world? The goal is to not let your money influence your life.

The rich man walked away angry and unwilling, leading Jesus to say "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." I dont think it is the worldly possessions themselves that we need to get rid of, but our attachment to them.

Keep in mind that just because someone is rich doesnt mean they serve money.

ETA: so you using this Bible verse in the debate was odd, as it really didnt apply to the topic at all.
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Old 08-12-2007, 11:10 PM   #71
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Right, so you're saying that instead of selectively using the bible for political purposes, you can selectively make generalizations out of specific situations in the bible for political purposes. So much better!
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Old 08-12-2007, 11:16 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2

Having possessions and acquiring wealth is not a sin. It's your attitude about it which can be dangerous. Things like money can be a god to many people. I dont know of many Bible verses that condemn people for having money- it's all about the attitude towards it.
omg what bible are you reading?
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Old 08-12-2007, 11:28 PM   #73
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To be fair, any religion that was taken by its adherents to require that they live in poverty wouldn't last long.

But I think BVS was referring to a religious imperative to care for the poor by making justice for them a priority, not simply by donating to charity when the whim hits.
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Old 08-12-2007, 11:33 PM   #74
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Just to make it clear, i'm not Christian, but I did go to a Catholic school for 12 years. And from what I understand, Jesus teaches us to give up all our possessions. But I don't think that we should force people to give up their possessions to the poor. So for someone to be Christian and rich at the same time is okay IMHO. From my understanding of the Bible, I think Jesus wanted us to give away our possessions with our own will.
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Old 08-12-2007, 11:44 PM   #75
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2861U2 - i'm curious, which of the democratic candidates do you consider to be moderate if you say clinton is left?
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