Sick of hearing about the Afgan civilian casualties - Page 3 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-16-2001, 02:40 PM   #31
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 11:46 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Marko:
80's I know - what you're saying is right, but my point is that we can also go to war if we take a peace of bible out of it's context - crusaders did it a few times! And christianity respects old and the new testament the same - the only difference is that our main objective of faith is in the new one.
Yes, I agree that people often do take thinsg out of context from the Bible to promote their own agendas. We see that happen all the time. And please don't get me wrong, I am not knocking the Muslim people. It's just that someone said that Islam teaches peace, and I was just pointing out that that is not always the case.
Christianity does respect the old and New testament, but we do live by the new covenant (that of God's grace through the death of christ Jesus) rather than by the strict codes and rules of the Old Testament. And when I'm talking about the codea and rules of the Old Testament, I'm not talking about the God-ordained law, like the ten commandments, but all the codes and regulations added by the priests of the day; things like length of hair, not working on the sabbath, not eating certain foods, etc.

__________________

__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 10-16-2001, 05:10 PM   #32
Babyface
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY USA
Posts: 8
Local Time: 04:46 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Yes, I think Fox news is conservatively-slanted. But that's A-OK with me, because I believe that conservatives are right on most of the issues.
You just damned your favorite low-brow news station. News should be reported without a slant at all. But then you might be challenged to think a little outside of your narrow mind, if you heard impartial and intelligent reporting, so you are right. Stick to only that which regurgitates what you believe in. Then you will always be right! Yeah, that's the ticket.
__________________

__________________
sweetest_thing is offline  
Old 10-16-2001, 07:55 PM   #33
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 11:46 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by sweetest_thing:
But then you might be challenged to think a little outside of your narrow mind, if you heard impartial and intelligent reporting, so you are right. Stick to only that which regurgitates what you believe in. Then you will always be right! Yeah, that's the ticket.
Slanted does not mean that they don't report the news accurately. It means that the commentators all come from teh same political stance that I do. There is something comforting in that. Don't even try to tell me that you feel comfortable watching news shows from a political view point that is the exact opposite of your own? If there is going to be a slant, and there always will be, I am of course going to choose the slant with which I am the most comfortable. And so would you. By the way, how in the WORLD can you tell me my mind is "narrow"? Do you know me personally? Do you know what things I have gone through in my life, and how these things have tested my faith? No, you don't. So be quiet about that.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 10-16-2001, 08:17 PM   #34
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 11:46 PM
And the moral of the story is that no one will ever hear the truth about this war, because all war news is spoon-fed to the media by the Pentagon. After Vietnam, all journalists were forbidden from reporting from the war zones, because the Pentagon hated all the negative press the journalists gave on Vietnam. As the government will never tell failures, we will only get half-truths, just as we were never told that the Patriot missile was only half-successful against Scud missiles--that is, until the Missile Defense Shield push began. It's propaganda from now on.

If you really want "fair" news reporting on this war, you'll most likely get it from either CBC (Canada) or BBC (U.K.), as such war zone restrictions are not forced upon their journalists. CNN, FOX News, NBC, CBS, ABC, etc. are only going to regurgitate what the government fed them, as prescribed by the Pentagon.

Melon

------------------
"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 10-16-2001, 08:42 PM   #35
Refugee
 
OzAurora's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: The Sunshine Coast, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 1,612
Local Time: 03:46 PM
Excellent point that you made then Melon- I would like to think that people are being selective in what they are believing in that is reported on certain tv stations. Here in Australia I have heard so much crap as to what people are believing, and myself being the ultimate skeptic am always dubious of a lot of things and having worked in a newsroom at one of our major commercial TV stations here in Australia I am also very aware of the sensationalism that is ever present in news reporting and most of these international stories are taken from your forementioned stations, I agree with the BBC- generally one can asume that they will give a fairly un-biased coverage and for the Australians who may read this I recommend watching the SBS news- it is amazing how different the coverage of an event will be when it is taken from and accounting for the perspective of a multicultural audience.....

and finally my opinion on the subject of this topic, well I think Gonzo said it all very elloquently, we are all human beings and an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth mentallity will never in my opinion prevail into a just and fair situation.......
__________________
OzAurora is offline  
Old 10-17-2001, 12:36 AM   #36
STING
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Local Time: 04:46 AM
Melon,
The Pentagon restricts the press to protect the men and women who are involved in secret military actions. They don't want the battle plan spelled out on CNN. Warfare in the 21st century is often about information. The Pentagon is very careful on letting any info it has out, so as not to aid the enemy.
In Vietnam the press sometimes distorted and failed to accurately report events and took things out of the full context of what was going on. I know this first hand from my Father who was there for a full year during the heaviest fighting of the war in 1968.
Most in the media have a poor understanding of the Military especially in technical area's which is why many things are at first misunderstood and reported inacurratly.
The patriot missile was originally not designed to shoot down another missile and was pressed into service to do so in the Gulf. Most of the "experts" said it might get within a 100 meters at most. Even some at the Pentagon thought a clear miss everytime was likely. It had never been test proven for this kind of operation.
Success was defined as keeping the scud missile out of a defined area or radius around where a patriot missile battery was deployed. In accomplishing the military's set objective, the missile was totally successful. It is true the none of the Scud Warheads were destroyed in the air, but the missile itself was prevented from penetrating
the defined area's. So what one would see would be the impact in the air of the Patriot with a Scud, followed by the Scud falling toward the ground and the explosion of the Scuds warhead on impact with the ground. Some casualties did happen in these events.
There were those that ran with headlines about the missile that were not entirely true, especially the company that built the missile. But one has to remember the Militaries initial thoughts and objectives before the war started for this missile.
__________________
 
Old 10-17-2001, 01:32 AM   #37
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 11:46 PM
I do agree with the fact that wars cannot be spread all over CNN nowadays. Even Saddam Hussein is known to have CNN, and watches it regularly.

However, perhaps this is a notice of public hypocrisy, but I don't know if we can trust our government not to distort the facts to their advantage. You can say "the media" distorts facts, but can you honestly say that the government won't?

Sometimes I swear this forum has flip-flopped since the Clinton era. Before, it was cynicism toward "big government" from conservatives, but now it's almost as if the government can't get big enough. It seems as if so many of these same people are now ready to surrender so much of their freedoms for "security"--which is understandable. I mean, security definitely needs to be tightened, but this implicit "you're not allowed to criticize" vibe coming from D.C. is very Orwellian at best. Which, in a way, poses a question: if we were being propagandized, would we know it?

But I just find this role-reversal regarding attitudes toward government quite interesting nonetheless. And you all know my attitudes toward this war, so none of this flaming "you're unpatriotic" crap. I'm a philosopher at heart.

Melon

------------------
"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 10-17-2001, 02:09 AM   #38
The Fly
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 234
Local Time: 04:46 AM
wolfwill, that perhaps was one of the most ignorant posts i have ever read. thankfully, drgonzo took the time to put you in your place.

the rest of the arguements, aside from wolfwills, have been intriging.

------------------
-death bear
__________________
Quano Abidji-Achibi is offline  
Old 10-17-2001, 07:36 PM   #39
STING
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Local Time: 04:46 AM
Although for the most part I'm in the Republican camp, I have never been on the side of those that are anti-Government. I've always supported gun control and wish US laws were similar to that of Europe on Gun Control. A strong National Defense and Free Trade are what keep me firmly in the Republican camp. Its funny, I have another friend thats a Republican and we disagree on nearly every issue it seem like sometimes. But he's more of a libertarian that votes Republican.
__________________
 
Old 10-18-2001, 12:33 AM   #40
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 03:46 PM
Why do you all continually attack each other?

Why is it, that if you are able to argue a point, the original one is voided and yours becomes right? Does anyone here know how to argue? By offering a contradictory retaliation on a point doesn't give automatic credence to your respose, nor make it right.

The amount of blind disinterest to other points of views in here is appalling. A person's argument may not be what you believe. But to quote melon quoting someone else, get over it or yourselves! To read an opinion which you do not see/agree with/like and then go in guns blazing with an attack on the writer is poor.



[This message has been edited by Angela Harlem (edited 10-17-2001).]
__________________
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 10-18-2001, 05:26 AM   #41
War Child
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 560
Local Time: 11:46 PM
Quote:
Don't you see a double-standard with the Taliban saying it's the worst thing ever when four of their people are killed after they just killed 5000 of our people?
That is not even the issue here.

The issue is that you obviously care more about human life when it is within the borders of your nation. End Of Story.

Quote:
Also, as I stated in my first post, they kill their own civilians everyday, in public executions held in a soccer field. But that's ok though, eh?
What a pathetic tactic.

You have just suceeded in humiliating yourself even further.

I did not in any way even suggest that the Taliban's actions were OK. Your attempt to put words in my mouth that totally go against everything I have ever said in this thread and on this topic shows what a sad and utterly intellectualy bankrupt position you are coming from.

Quote:
I do respect human life, however, I am upset with the American media. I am following this quite closly especially since I live 3 blocks from the WTC site and all. I would like to see major newstations take just a minute each day and briefly talk about one of the victims.
As others have said, WTC victim stories have been unavoidable for the past month.

Quote:
I think that your major problem is that you are probably watching that anti-US, pro-Taliban cable station CNN for your news. You need to watch Foxnews, where they tell ALL sides of the story.
Provide one shred of proof that CNN is ant-US or Pro-Taliban. I would like to see you try.

Quote:
CNN refuses to show how our brothers and sisters came to a horrific and violent death at the WTC,
I've watched a hell of a lot of CNN over the past month and that statement is just bullshit. There is not a single shred of truth to what you said. Your credibility is starting to drop to that of wolfwill23.

Quote:
CNN is an insult to the victims of Sept. 11th.
Your inability to be honest is an insult to all of us.



[This message has been edited by DoctorGonzo (edited 10-18-2001).]
__________________
DoctorGonzo is offline  
Old 10-18-2001, 10:05 AM   #42
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 11:46 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem:
Why do you all continually attack each other?

Why is it, that if you are able to argue a point, the original one is voided and yours becomes right? Does anyone here know how to argue? By offering a contradictory retaliation on a point doesn't give automatic credence to your respose, nor make it right.

The amount of blind disinterest to other points of views in here is appalling. A person's argument may not be what you believe. But to quote melon quoting someone else, get over it or yourselves! To read an opinion which you do not see/agree with/like and then go in guns blazing with an attack on the writer is poor.

[This message has been edited by Angela Harlem (edited 10-17-2001).]
Angela, I think you're not reading the same posts I am. I don't see "attcking" going on here, except one mild case in which I was accused of having a "narrow mind". What I do see are points well argued.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 10-18-2001, 12:52 PM   #43
War Child
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: the Bad Girls School where MissMac graduated from.
Posts: 549
Local Time: 04:46 AM
I agree with 80's.
We see Gonzie,Stars n Stripes,Matthew P, Marko, Bama, Melon, and others being very respectable of each other's posts..That's why I do love it here.

[This message has been edited by bonovista (edited 10-18-2001).]
__________________
bonovista is offline  
Old 10-18-2001, 02:07 PM   #44
Refugee
 
Anthony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,538
Local Time: 04:46 AM
This doesn't put my debating skills under a positive light, however, how dare you, wolfwill23. If you could just step back for a minute away from the manipulation of the press and media and think as a sentient human being, you would appreciate the whole thing on a humanitarian scale, not the mechanical irritation your poor sense of patience for 'bad news' has misled you to.

I will not go on attacking or insulting you, for it would be too easy to do that, instead, I'm going to enlighten you, since you seem to be devoid of certain facts. The first fact being that all of this turmoil and humanitarian disaster is basically due to indirect fault of the west; the western world, which includes everyone from America to nice old passive France. Everyone knows how America encouraged the Muhajideen to overthrow the Russians, but I wonder if people appreciate just how callous the Western world was in turning its back to Afghanistan when it was all over. When the Russian enemy was defeated and various regimes took over Afghanistan, I wonder who was there to back them up. I wonder, who was there to help the humanitarian crisis that has lasted for more than an entire decade. Yes, you may have lost 5,000 in one go, as you claimed, and I hate myself for sounding so callous, but these people have known suffering a lot longer than America, or any other country in the world in the west will ever know in this modern age. Try various fanatical regimes ravaging the country, burying its own country into poverty, making three out of five children orphans, condemming innocent women, children and perfectly civilised men into a life of no opportunities, wealth and no freedom. This, and a life completely devoid of the essentials of human existence, has been going on for decades now, and you have the audacity to stand up and moan about how a few days of reporting has tired your patience and ears out.

A little out of focus.

Think about that statistic, how three out o five children have no parents. How everywhere they go and tread on they have to flinch because 45% of Afghanistan is coverd in mines; some that have been left there, some have been put there maliciously recent. Most people don't even want the Taliban, they hate them more than the West does, for chrissakes! But you just sit down with them and let them tell you of how it was BEFORE the taliban, when the Muhajideen would not only kill women for showing skin, but rape them beforehand.

With stories, images and numbers as seen in Afghanistan, its not a question of 'playing up the camera', as you so humanly said. Their grief and pain is quite genuine, and has been lasting for a considerable amount of time, longer than the period since the 11th.

I condemn the attacks on America, and I grieve for your loss, and I fully back the course of action America is taking, but I object to the lack of humanity that some people display, the lack of humanity that put all of us into this mess in the first place. My view remains the same as always, September 11th, horrible and ghastly as it was, was a wake up call for some people. Obviously, some people are still very much asleep, if all you can think about is how irritating it is to hear of Afghan suffering. So you can hear all you want about how people died on YOUR territory, but you get irritated with reports from Afghanistan; THAT is a double-standard as the next hypocritical doubt from the Spin-doctor's note book ever was.

We all know of the Taliban and its cruelty, but that doesn't reflect the way everyone is. What most people in the Afghan region think, feel and say, IS anger, but not the same type of anger. Their anger is centered on how the West paid them to wage war, how their country was, against their own will, rushed for the front lines of a brutal war (that led to several wars), and then, when all was said and done, the West turned its back and left them to clear up the mess. France, the battle ground of the first and second world war, was given compensation and was paid for its losses; where was the West when all was said and done in Afganistan.
Now, whether you think the West has a responsibility or not, I am merely illustrating the point that this story has a lot more pain and history and complexity than your opinion has given it credit.

'We have to remember every day that these people had dreams, a favorite band and ambitions in life. Those things were taken away from them for no reason.'

YOUR quote. Why don't you use it for the Afghans dying now, and those who have already died, and have been dying. THey have dreams too, you know. Oh, I forgot. You live in a life immersed in double-standards. Do you need another catastrophe to wake you up?

Yes, I agree with the bombings, but it deserves a more careful approach. Yes, I agree with action; but I also believe in a little bit of respect for human life, whether American of Afghan. You could try to show a bit of respect yourself.

Ant.
__________________
Anthony is offline  
Old 10-19-2001, 12:23 AM   #45
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 03:46 PM
Actually didn't mean you there 80's. Have a reread of some of these war threads. Name calling etc, but if others dont seem to mind, guess I shouldn't.

As Dennis Denuto once said, "Its the vibe".

Anyhoo...
__________________

__________________
Angela Harlem is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com