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Old 09-27-2006, 12:48 PM   #46
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
Apples and oranges.
How so?

It's your country.

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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
I'm from an upper-middle class family and I've always known English, so I can't in any way relate to the situation of most Hispanics.
That's why we learn Spanish when we go to Spanish-speaking countries.
And that's why they should learn English when they go to English-speaking countries.

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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
Fortunately for me, studying another language is a luxury, not a burden. There's a difference between opportunities and requirements.
It should continue to be a luxury that opens doors for you to communicate in a different tongue to new people, rather than a burden to learn other languages, in the event that your government builds their own Tower of Babel.
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Old 09-27-2006, 12:56 PM   #47
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Justin... Are you really suggesting that the US does not have secure borders? Short of putting personel on every inch of border and coastline, you will always have people that will take a chance (often chancing their lives) at crossing in to give them an opportunity not afforded to them in their homeland. But entering the US via its ports is not a formality. For those of us that have had the pain of applying for a visa, or have arrived at port only to find being re-boarded straight away onto a return without explanation, you will not increase security of borders without totally alienating foreign business travellers and tourists.

But I do agree with your frustrations with illegal immigrants. The US is a multicultural melting-pot, largely (if my memory of History lessons from school is correct) due to the immigration of the last couple of hundred years. It most recently reflects economic success and values that many believe in. But illegal and uncontrolled legal immigration create strain on public services (we see this in pockets in the UK). These people cannot gain access to these services and opportunities and expect everyone else to share their burden. They at least need to demonstrate that they bring with them some value to society. Just bringing themselves without even an understanding of the language is just draining on resources.

What you say about low-cost workers and the impact on jobs is interesting. I'm going on gut-feel here, but I'd be pretty sure that the impact of US companies outsourcing activities to India, China, Mexico and the like has had a much larger impact on the jobs market. Additionally if you relied on fewer imports there would be a much larger demand for labour (sorry, labor). You'd then be clamouring for cheap labour to become available. Actually, there's a really fine balance between importing labour (controlled and illegal) and providing opportunities to them in their own country (importing goods). The equilibrium can only be achieved with equal global trade rules. Until then there will always people that 'follow the bright light'

Strongly agree with you on language. English has always been the language of choice in America for as long as I can remember. It's unreconcilable that someone who wants to be a member of US society does not have the desire to put in the effort to learn it. Ability the read and (to a lesser extent) write is an absolute minimum entry requirement. In my view nobody should be gained permenant entry to the US without being able to speak English, or for those currently in the country, access to public services should be resticted until they can. Business should not be allowed to employ until that point and anyone that does should be severely fined without exception. Multi-lingual notices should be banned in all areas except for points of entry and major tourists areas - it would show that visitors are welcomed.
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Old 09-27-2006, 12:57 PM   #48
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Strongly agree with you on language. English has always been the language of choice in America for as long as I can remember. It's unreconcilable that someone who wants to be a member of US society does not have the desire to put in the effort to learn it. Ability the read and (to a lesser extent) write is an absolute minimum entry requirement. In my view nobody should be gained permenant entry to the US without being able to speak English, or for those currently in the country, access to public services should be resticted until they can. Business should not be allowed to employ until that point and anyone that does should be severely fined without exception. Multi-lingual notices should be banned in all areas except for points of entry and major tourists areas - it would show that visitors are welcomed.
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Old 09-27-2006, 01:30 PM   #49
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I encourage you to learn other languages. I took german but failed at. that.
I have learned other languages. Like I said, how many languages you and I speak is not comparable, because we have money and privilege. Learning languages in school has been a luxury for many of us who post here. Most of us can't relate to the situations we're trying to enforce on another ethnic group.

I'm not saying people should only speak one language. I'm saying we shouldn't force people to speak OUR language simply because WE feel it's more appropriate or more adventageous for them.
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Old 09-27-2006, 01:33 PM   #50
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Most of us can't relate to the situations we're trying to enforce on another ethnic group.
Ethnicity and language are not the same thing.

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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
I'm not saying people should only speak one language. I'm saying we shouldn't force people to speak OUR language simply because WE feel it's more appropriate or more adventageous for them.
It's more advantageous for a society as a whole to speak one language.
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Old 09-27-2006, 01:39 PM   #51
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Hypocrisy and racism?

Either you're confusing cultural integration with racism, or you're playing the race card under an abstract hallucination - "McCarthyism" at its finest.
LOL, you obviously don't understand what McCarthyism was.

Cultural integration isn't inviting people from other countries and cultures and then forcing them to give up their culture from day one. You don't teach people to swim by having them dive into the deep end.
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Old 09-27-2006, 01:44 PM   #52
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It's more advantageous for a society as a whole to speak one language.
Really? I've had to study a lot of intercultural communication and socio-linguistics and I've never come across this claim. I think it's advantageous for society as a whole to be able to integrate and communicate with one another, but I don't think that translates into "everyone is forced to learn English."

If everyone should speak the same primary language, it would make MORE sense for English speakers to learn Spanish, since in my experience the people insisting on a single national language are usually the ones with the time/money/resources to be able to study another language.

Honestly, I can't understand why anyone would want to establish roots in a country and not ever want to learn the language, but that doesn't mean I advocate forcing/legislating that they do. I plan to move abroad and study the new language first, but if someone were to approach me and say my visa depended on my comprehension of their language, I'd be quite put off.
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Old 09-27-2006, 01:45 PM   #53
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As for your first question. Fine they don't learn to speak english, then the US become a hispanic Majority so wouldn't that mean people would be required to learn hispanic, same goes if it became an asian majority etc...
So this is your fear? You can't see the hint of racism in that?
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Old 09-27-2006, 01:49 PM   #54
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I have no fear of that. I don't see any hint of Racism, can you point it out and explain.
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Old 09-27-2006, 01:51 PM   #55
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I have no fear of that. I don't see any hint of Racism, can you point it out and explain.
Why would you even bring it up then, if you didn't think that would happen?
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Old 09-27-2006, 01:52 PM   #56
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LOL, you obviously don't understand what McCarthyism was.
Mc·Car·thy·ism (mə-kär'thē-ĭz'əm)
n.
The practice of publicizing accusations of political disloyalty or subversion with insufficient regard to evidence.
The use of unfair investigatory or accusatory methods in order to suppress opposition.

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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Cultural integration isn't inviting people from other countries and cultures and then forcing them to give up their culture from day one. You don't teach people to swim by having them dive into the deep end.
They aren't being forced to give up their culture. They are being asked the ability to communicate outside of their native tongue. You don't have to put your cultural roots aside in order to speak English, anymore than I would have to put my American roots aside in order to speak Spanish.
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Old 09-27-2006, 01:58 PM   #57
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


Honestly, I can't understand why anyone would want to establish roots in a country and not ever want to learn the language, but that doesn't mean I advocate forcing/legislating that they do. I plan to move abroad and study the new language first, but if someone were to approach me and say my visa depended on my comprehension of their language, I'd be quite put off.
You are a fine example and if everyone followed your lead then it wouldn't require legislation. But US citizens that I have worked with in the UK believe that the US is littered with people who are simply on the 'take'
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Old 09-27-2006, 02:02 PM   #58
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Mc·Car·thy·ism (mə-kär'thē-ĭz'əm)
n.
The practice of publicizing accusations of political disloyalty or subversion with insufficient regard to evidence.
The use of unfair investigatory or accusatory methods in order to suppress opposition.
Yes, I know this, but it doesn't apply to anything I was talking about...
Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

They aren't being forced to give up their culture. They are being asked the ability to communicate outside of their native tongue. You don't have to put your cultural roots aside in order to speak English, anymore than I would have to put my American roots aside in order to speak Spanish.
Look like I've said before, not learning English is a disadvantage to those who move here. But it's their choice. That's all I'm saying. We live in a country built on immigrants coming from different languages, a pretty unique background compared to most countries. Yet why are we the only ones that get pissed off when there's multilingual signage?
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Old 09-27-2006, 02:06 PM   #59
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BVS can you please answer my other questions from the first page.
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Old 09-27-2006, 02:07 PM   #60
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Really? I've had to study a lot of intercultural communication and socio-linguistics and I've never come across this claim. I think it's advantageous for society as a whole to be able to integrate and communicate with one another, but I don't think that translates into "everyone is forced to learn English."
They should have a basic understanding of the English language to aquire permanant citizenship, as you know they will need to communicate with the rest of us if they want a career. There is no vice in establishing a national language. Take a look at the multi-lingual societies - how are they superior in technology and economically then a unilingual country?

Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
If everyone should speak the same primary language, it would make MORE sense for English speakers to learn Spanish, since in my experience the people insisting on a single national language are usually the ones with the time/money/resources to be able to study another language.
You are telling 300,000,000 people to abandon their tongue in order to appease a far lower number of those who impose their native tongue on a society they don't legally reside in.

HOW DOES YOUR ARGUMENT MAKE ANY SENSE?

Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
Honestly, I can't understand why anyone would want to establish roots in a country and not ever want to learn the language, but that doesn't mean I advocate forcing/legislating that they do. I plan to move abroad and study the new language first, but if someone were to approach me and say my visa depended on my comprehension of their language, I'd be quite put off.
As you said earlier, it should be a luxury to learn another language, not a hassle. That contradicts your argument for Babelism in its entirety.
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