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Old 05-23-2005, 07:43 AM   #46
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I don't know about her specific situation, but I can understand why a woman would want her husband to be primarily attracted to her. I'm not naive or stupid, I understand that men AND women have natural sexual urges that can be manifested in many ways, and that doesn't mean that your relationship has to be affected. As long as it doesn't go beyond looking or become an obsession that impacts upon your relationship.

But people have different levels of sensitivity, I wouldn't fault someone for that.
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Old 05-23-2005, 07:46 AM   #47
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Sorry, Irvine511, but you're not gonna blame this one on her. Yes, she has some difficulties, as we all do, but the issue in question was the effect that porn has on a marriage, and I told you the effect that it had on my friend's psyche. I honestly believe that most women would feel the same way if they discovered their husband was looking at Playboy.

There is nothing positive about porn in a marriage.

If you love someone, there'd be no desire to look at someone else naked, much less to watch people have sexual relations on video.
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Old 05-23-2005, 07:48 AM   #48
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On one hand, I do try to be open-minded as far as people's sexual behavior goes, and I tend to let go whatever happens between two consenting adults (legally speaking, at least). But I would be totally lying if I said that my boyfriend or husband looking at those things wouldn't hurt me. I think I would feel that, since I work hard to make him happy and try to look my best, my best somehow was not good enough for him, and he needed to look elsewhere for gratification.

Naive and silly of me? Ah, maybe. And I know there are some women who share in their S.O.s' film or photography (LOL) habits, and I find nothing wrong with that if they're both genuinely interested. But, speaking only for myself, I can see how even a casual "dirty picture" habit could disrupt a relationship. I think it would hurt me, and put a strain on a relationship I was in.
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Old 05-23-2005, 07:52 AM   #49
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Well said pax, I agree. Speaking for myself, if you're sensitive about your looks, attractiveness, whatever already..

Ideally people in a relationship should talk freely about this subject, but it doesn't always work that way.

And let's face it, women in those magazines and movies are airbrushed and most have fake breasts, lipo, whatever.
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Old 05-23-2005, 08:04 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
also, you have a much, much better chance of getting married in Texas than a gay person getting married in Texas. no one is legally preventing you from getting married. if circumstance doesn't work out that way, so be it, but it remains available to you as a citizen. not for gay people.
You're right. And I don't know what to say about it.
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Old 05-23-2005, 08:09 AM   #51
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the variety of topics raised and responses in this thread show how complex and multi-layered the issue of pornography is.

as for the regulation aspect, i don't see how it can be reasonably regulated without running the risk of censorship. any idiot with a digital camera who knows how to upload onto the web can post whatever they want. as long as it's between consenting adults...?

personally, the topic is difficult for me to talk about, because one of my exes was a porn addict. i don't want to get into the details, but i know how damaging the experience was to both me and him. it was very much like drug addiction in his case. i don't want to generalize because i know this is an extreme example, but personally, i have no patience for porn in my relationships anymore. i tried to pretend that i was okay with it, but now i know that it's a dealbreaker for me.
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Old 05-23-2005, 08:41 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
I honestly believe that most women would feel the same way if they discovered their husband was looking at Playboy.

There is nothing positive about porn in a marriage.

If you love someone, there'd be no desire to look at someone else naked, much less to watch people have sexual relations on video.
Since you have so much experience with marriage, you know this?

My husband subscribes to Playboy. We have the most loving, stable relationship of anyone I know. Our friends look up to us as examples of how a marriage is supposed to be. We are completely committed to each other, body and soul.

I like the occasional dalliance with porn. So does my husband. We enjoy it together.

Does this fit with your experience in a marriage?
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Old 05-23-2005, 08:58 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
Sorry, Irvine511, but you're not gonna blame this one on her. Yes, she has some difficulties, as we all do, but the issue in question was the effect that porn has on a marriage, and I told you the effect that it had on my friend's psyche. I honestly believe that most women would feel the same way if they discovered their husband was looking at Playboy.

There is nothing positive about porn in a marriage.

If you love someone, there'd be no desire to look at someone else naked, much less to watch people have sexual relations on video.


sorry, 80sU2isbest, but i wasn't trying to blame anyone. i don't understand how the existence of pornography could destroy a marriage, and that it was the combination of pornography with this women's issues that probably led to all these problems.

i think you have an idealized vision of marriage. i have many female friends who have told me, point blank, that they'd be more concerned if their boyfriends didn't have any porn -- that looking at porn like Playboy (not, btw, porn that was excessively into submission/domination, or had anything to do with what is beyond normal standards of sexuality) was an entirely normal thing, and that they knew their boyfriends could tell the difference between fantasy and reality, as can they.

perhaps people who aren't mature enough to understand what porn is -- pure fantasy -- shouldn't be looking at it.
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Old 05-23-2005, 08:59 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

You're right. And I don't know what to say about it.

legalize gay marriage?

also, what would you stance be, then, on sex within the context of a Civil Union like those currently found in Vermont, Connecticut, and California?
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Old 05-23-2005, 09:05 AM   #55
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I just want to add that I don't really have a stance on "vanilla," legally-consenting-adults-type pornography...if single folks or couples enjoy it, that's none of my business.

It would just make me uncomfortable if I knew that it was *my* boyfriend or husband.
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Old 05-23-2005, 09:06 AM   #56
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Maybe people just have widely differing ideals about marriage, what someone else considers idealized is not for another. I'm not faulting what you said Irvine, it's just that some people can handle porn being involved and it doesn't affect their relationship, like Martha said. Some people can't.

Yes porn is "pure fantasy" but when you mix that all in w/ human insecurities and complex emotions, well..

I consider myself to be "mature enough" to realize what porn SHOULD be considered to be, but that's easy in the abstract-not easy in the non-abstract perhaps. And for some people it crosses the line from fantasy.
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Old 05-23-2005, 09:14 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by pax
I just want to add that I don't really have a stance on "vanilla," legally-consenting-adults-type pornography...if single folks or couples enjoy it, that's none of my business.

It would just make me uncomfortable if I knew that it was *my* boyfriend or husband.


and i think that's fair. it's a discussion to have, i think, with your SO. if you clearly state to him that pornography would make you feel uncomfortable, you can either have that discussion, or he can agree that he will not look at porn out of respect to and for you.

and then if you find it after the discussion, it becomes a different issue.

i think i can speak for the men, straight or gay, when i say that we are well able to differentiate between fantasy and reality, and that the desire for fantasy -- a body fantasy -- is not an indication of something lacking in the partner. not at all. it's simply fantasy, and probably a masturbation aide. i would also posit that men in healthy sexual relationships -- married or otherwise -- probably masturbate, and that this is normal and healthy. i hope that women don't feel as if a masturbating husband is somehow a message that he's not satisfied. far from it.

and to take a step back, i think it's in areas like this that i feel very happy to be gay. i understand what's going on when men look at porn (addiciton is something else, as is porn involving, say, minors), when they masturbate, when they have fantasies ... there's a level of understanding at this level that works well to bring you closer as a couple. i loved being in a restaurant or at the movies or just watching TV with my ex and we'd discussion who was hot or whatever.
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Old 05-23-2005, 09:16 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
Maybe people just have widely differing ideals about marriage, what someone else considers idealized is not for another. I'm not faulting what you said Irvine, it's just that some people can handle porn being involved and it doesn't affect their relationship, like Martha said. Some people can't.

Yes porn is "pure fantasy" but when you mix that all in w/ human insecurities and complex emotions, well..

I consider myself to be "mature enough" to realize what porn SHOULD be considered to be, but that's easy in the abstract-not easy in the non-abstract perhaps. And for some people it crosses the line from fantasy.


all good points.

i suppose i can really only speak for myself. i think i understand what porn is, so i'm not at all bothered by it. and i've watched porn movies as a form of foreplay. all fun.

but i can understand that some people don't view it in this way. i really do understand that.
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Old 05-23-2005, 09:30 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

i think you have an idealized vision of marriage. i have many female friends who have told me, point blank, that they'd be more concerned if their boyfriends didn't have any porn -- that looking at porn like Playboy (not, btw, porn that was excessively into submission/domination, or had anything to do with what is beyond normal standards of sexuality) was an entirely normal thing, and that they knew their boyfriends could tell the difference between fantasy and reality, as can they.

perhaps people who aren't mature enough to understand what porn is -- pure fantasy -- shouldn't be looking at it.
My idea of marriage is idealized, that's right. I am looking at marriage at how it should be - two people who love each other and are committed each other. Where is the love in looking at pictures of someone other than your spouse naked? Can you give me any support for that being a sign of love for your spouse? Even one? What good is served by a man looking at another woman naked?

Personally, I think your female friends are settling for sub-standard relationships by not expecting their husbands/boyfriends to refrain from porn. If a man loves a woman, he will refrain from porn because he will be satisfied with her, and on top of that, he won't want to hurt her. If I knew your female friends, I'd tell them to go out and find men who would respect them and love them enough to not look at porn.

None of the female friends I know would be okay with it. In fact, every single one of them would tell the husband to stop or she'd divorce him. And I say more power to them.
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Old 05-23-2005, 09:43 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


My idea of marriage is idealized, that's right. I am looking at marriage at how it should be - two people who love each other and are committed each other. Where is the love in looking at pictures of someone other than your spouse naked? Can you give me any support for that being a sign of love for your spouse? Even one? What good is served by a man looking at another woman naked?

Personally, I think your female friends are settling for sub-standard relationships by not expecting their husbands/boyfriends to refrain from porn. If a man loves a woman, he will refrain from porn because he will be satisfied with her, and on top of that, he won't want to hurt her. If I knew your female friends, I'd tell them to go out and find men who would respect them and love them enough to not look at porn.

None of the female friends I know would be okay with it. In fact, every single one of them would tell the husband to stop or she'd divorce him. And I say more power to them.

how marriage should be ... i think that's a dangerous phrase because it implies that there's a standard, and that everything that devaites from it is somehow less worthy. i think marriage should be what works for the individuals involved, and that if your ideal marriage, you would never look at pornography. fine, if that works for you, but it doesn't work for everyone.

more power to someone who would divorce someone for owning a Playboy? i can understand porn addiction, kiddie porn, violent porn ... but i cannot understand a relatively mainstream magazine like Playboy. divorce? isn't that far, far worse?

in my opinion, the thing of value is the relationship, not the adherence to a set of standards. what matters to me is the survival of the two people involved, and that requries forgiveness, compassion, understanding, and good intentions ... is this why the divorce rate is so high? are people setting themselvse up for failure?

perhaps men look at other naked women simply because they are beautiful -- is that much different than looking at a beautiful painting, sunset, or landscape? i think it's simply unrealistic that, once you marry someone, all women become instantly unattractive. i don't think that happens -- if you were to get married would you not still find, say, Angelina Jolie beautiful? you might never do anything with her in real life (even if given the opportunity) and that's a good thing, but to deny that she is beautiful and sexy simply because you are now married is, i think, rather silly.

to me, the mature thing would be to acknowledge all these things, but to then say, "but i love you -- not them. they aren't real, you are." i would find this level of honesty and frankness beneficial to the relationship. we acknowledge that we live in a world saturated with beautiful people, and we acknowledge that we find these beautiful people attractive, and we acknowledge that they aren't real but our relationship and love for each other is.
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