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Old 05-26-2005, 02:57 PM   #196
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Originally posted by Irvine511
i simply don't think people get divorced because of porn. i think people, especialy women, might want to blame that as a reason, but there are probably much deeper issues than the presence of porn.

a porn addiction, however, is different than the presence of porn -- that's more analagous to alcohol or drug addiction, and as is the case with all addiction, the substance abused is a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself. no one is saying that porn can't be a negative thing, but it's not porn alone that is bad, it is the abuse and misuse of porn that can be a problem.

i would also argue that more kids are affected by alcohol than by porn, more marriages end with alcohol as a factor than porn -- so should we ban alcohol?
I made a point of using porn as a factor, not the sole cause.

You make a good point regarding alcohol. However, we already do have regulations on the purchase and use of alcohol. So perhaps we can extend those to porn as well.
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Old 05-26-2005, 03:08 PM   #197
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I think I might be done here. Clearly our more conservative brethren spend much more time thinking about porn and its consequences than I do. Their vast experience with its horible effects far outweighs my limited experience with its rather limited benefits.

I guess if you don't want to look at other people naked, you don't have to, but why anyone would think that they should be able to tell me that I can't look at other consenting adults naked, well, I don't know.
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Old 05-26-2005, 03:09 PM   #198
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


You make a good point regarding alcohol. However, we already do have regulations on the purchase and use of alcohol. So perhaps we can extend those to porn as well.
Maybe one last comment.

Perhaps we can have the same restrictions on porn as we do alcohol: restrict its sale to adults.

Oh wait. We already do.
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Old 05-26-2005, 03:30 PM   #199
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
You make a good point regarding alcohol. However, we already do have regulations on the purchase and use of alcohol. So perhaps we can extend those to porn as well.


we already do.

ack! martha beat me to the punch!

porn is regulated -- i believe that magazines that show full penetration are of a higher cost and less available than magazines that simply show naked bodies.

children cannot buy porn.

there are many kinds of porn that are legal in other places, but not in the US.

what more do you want?
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Old 05-26-2005, 03:51 PM   #200
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Originally posted by Irvine511
and any individual would have every right to tell you to piss off if you were to tell him that, if he really loved his wife, then he wouldn't look at Playboy.
They have every right to tell me that, and I wouldn't give a rat's behind.

But I would lay odds with you that most people, especially most women, would agree with me that a married man looking at images of naked women other than his wife is a sign that he (a)is not satisfied with his wife and (b) he doesn't respect his wife or his feelings, which is a big indicator that he doesn't love her.

We will always diagree on this Irvine, because we base our ideas about marriage on totally different things. This gets us nowhere.
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Old 05-26-2005, 03:55 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


she also mentioned "end up miserable" once -- you've repeated the fact that no man who is in love with his wife would never want to see another woman naked several times.

world of difference there, in my opinion.
It doesn't matter how many times anyone said anything, Irvine511. What matters is that she made a judgment call against people who believe the way I do and yet at the same time, whined about me making a judgment call about married men looking at naked women other than their wives. It's absolutely outrageous.
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Old 05-26-2005, 05:06 PM   #202
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Originally posted by martha


Maybe one last comment.

Perhaps we can have the same restrictions on porn as we do alcohol: restrict its sale to adults.

Oh wait. We already do.
Do we? Or is that a matter of self-regulation?
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Old 05-26-2005, 07:31 PM   #203
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Do we? Or is that a matter of self-regulation?


yes, we do. you must have a credit card for websites, you must show ID for magazines and videos.

it works about as well as keeping alcohol and cigarettes away from minors.

have you any suggestions?
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Old 05-26-2005, 07:35 PM   #204
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


They have every right to tell me that, and I wouldn't give a rat's behind.

But I would lay odds with you that most people, especially most women, would agree with me that a married man looking at images of naked women other than his wife is a sign that he (a)is not satisfied with his wife and (b) he doesn't respect his wife or his feelings, which is a big indicator that he doesn't love her.

We will always diagree on this Irvine, because we base our ideas about marriage on totally different things. This gets us nowhere.

fair enough.

i base my marriage on two people who love each other enough to say, "we're going to do this, together" and then finding out for themselves how they can best function as a unit that provides both members with love, support, and solidarity.

i also think my view on marriage is affected by being gay -- gay relationships, especially long term gay male relationships, tend to be models of equality, respect, space, and solidarity. i do think this is something that straight people can learn from gay people. due to commonalities of gender, there seems to be a greater level of trust in most of the gay relationships i've seen.

and i know Joyfulgirl would agree, and she probably knows more long term gay male couples than i do.

i still can't believe you think a married man looking at a playboy suggests that he doesn't love his wife.

i find that shocking, and really rather patronizing.
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Old 05-26-2005, 07:36 PM   #205
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


It doesn't matter how many times anyone said anything, Irvine511. What matters is that she made a judgment call against people who believe the way I do and yet at the same time, whined about me making a judgment call about married men looking at naked women other than their wives. It's absolutely outrageous.


the comparisons you're making aren't applicable.

but this is Martha's job, not mine.
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Old 05-26-2005, 08:26 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



fair enough.

i base my marriage on two people who love each other enough to say, "we're going to do this, together" and then finding out for themselves how they can best function as a unit that provides both members with love, support, and solidarity.

i also think my view on marriage is affected by being gay -- gay relationships, especially long term gay male relationships, tend to be models of equality, respect, space, and solidarity. i do think this is something that straight people can learn from gay people. due to commonalities of gender, there seems to be a greater level of trust in most of the gay relationships i've seen.

and i know Joyfulgirl would agree, and she probably knows more long term gay male couples than i do.

i still can't believe you think a married man looking at a playboy suggests that he doesn't love his wife.

i find that shocking, and really rather patronizing.
I don't think patronising is the word you're looking for. Patronising means to treat someone with condescension. Nothing I've said has done that.

About love - as you know, love is more than merely saying "I love you" and "I want to be with you". When you love someone, you treat that person with respect, and you place that person's feelings and needs above your own. What is respectful and loving about looking at another woman naked?

As you know, my views on all of this are centered in my Christian faith. Christ said that if a man looks at a woman with lust, he has committed adultery in his heart. That is one reason that I believe porn is wrong, especially in a marriage.
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Old 05-26-2005, 08:30 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




the comparisons you're making aren't applicable.

but this is Martha's job, not mine.
They're very applicable, Irvine. She made a judgment call against people who think porn shouldn't be in a marriage, after complaining about me for making a jufdgment call about married men who look at porn. Just because you don't see the hypocrisy doesn't mean it's not there.
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Old 05-26-2005, 08:37 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


i also think my view on marriage is affected by being gay -- gay relationships, especially long term gay male relationships, tend to be models of equality, respect, space, and solidarity. i do think this is something that straight people can learn from gay people. due to commonalities of gender, there seems to be a greater level of trust in most of the gay relationships i've seen.

and i know Joyfulgirl would agree, and she probably knows more long term gay male couples than i do.
I do absolutely agree and have said so many times.
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Old 05-26-2005, 09:08 PM   #209
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
What!? Divorce imposes a great burden on society. We just don't want to do anything about it.
Divorce is a burden to the family and the family alone. My life is not affected if Mr. and Mrs. Smith in Iowa decide to end their marriage. That is something that that particular family has to deal with.

Also, okay, so even if your children thing holds some water, again I will ask the question about the couples who DON'T have children. Why would you still feel it necessary to control what they do in the privacy of their bedroom?

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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Just like guns are neutral as based on your methodology of recognizing harm.
Yeah...I already said that the gun can't do anything just sitting there by itself. I've already said that I'm not a fan of guns, personally, but if someone is responsible with one and therefore wishes to own one, that is entirely their choice.

Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
But I am still of the opinion that porn is unhealthy, especially in a marriage
Yes. You think it's unhealthy. But others don't, as has been shown throughout this thread. Therefore, if you don't want porn in your life, fine, that's your choice, you certainly don't have to. But if other couples do, that's their choice.

Also, once again, porn can only be unhealthy if someone makes it so.

Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
and that if someone truly loves and respects his wife, he will have no desire to look at other women naked.
And as I already said a ways back in this thread, porn is not there for the sole purpose of looking at another human being naked. Married couples can use it to get ideas to improve their sex life. People can see it as an art form.

Seriously, so once I get married, does this mean that I should cease having any fantasies about male celebrities I find attractive? I mean, I'm married now, so I shouldn't be having fantasies about anyone other than my husband, right?

Angela
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Old 05-26-2005, 09:18 PM   #210
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Divorce is a burden to the family and the family alone. My life is not affected if Mr. and Mrs. Smith in Iowa decide to end their marriage. That is something that that particular family has to deal with.
Sounds like an optimistic view of divorce. The pain and damage, however, are not limited to the family's home.
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