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Old 06-13-2005, 11:43 AM   #46
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I don't think so.





this is what I was referriing to

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.now? its for people to go out and have sex with 10 different people, have 9 babies with 9 different fathers and then my tax dollars go to pay for them while the mother does nothing all day but be a baby factory.
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Old 06-13-2005, 02:17 PM   #47
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http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...aq_military_wa

Military action won't end insurgency, growing number of U.S. officers believe

By Tom Lasseter, Knight Ridder Newspapers
Sun Jun 12, 4:52 PM ET



BAGHDAD, Iraq - A growing number of senior American military officers in Iraq have concluded that there is no long-term military solution to an insurgency that has killed thousands of Iraqis and more than 1,300 U.S. troops during the past two years.

Instead, officers say, the only way to end the guerilla war is through Iraqi politics - an arena that so far has been crippled by divisions between Shiite Muslims, whose coalition dominated the January elections, and Sunni Muslims, who are a minority in Iraq but form the base of support for the insurgency.

"I think the more accurate way to approach this right now is to concede that ... this insurgency is not going to be settled, the terrorists and the terrorism in Iraq is not going to be settled, through military options or military operations," Brig. Gen. Donald Alston, the chief U.S. military spokesman in Iraq, said last week, in a comment that echoes what other senior officers say. "It's going to be settled in the political process."

Gen. George W. Casey, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, expressed similar sentiments, calling the military's efforts "the Pillsbury Doughboy idea" - pressing the insurgency in one area only causes it to rise elsewhere.

"Like in Baghdad," Casey said during an interview with two newspaper reporters, including one from Knight Ridder, last week. "We push in Baghdad - they're down to about less than a car bomb a day in Baghdad over the last week - but in north-center (Iraq) ... they've gone up," he said. "The political process will be the decisive element."

The recognition that a military solution is not in the offing has led U.S. and Iraqi officials to signal they are willing to negotiate with insurgent groups, or their intermediaries.

"It has evolved in the course of normal business," said a senior U.S. diplomatic official in Baghdad, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of U.S. policy to defer to the Iraqi government on Iraqi political matters. "We have now encountered people who at least claim to have some form of a relationship with the insurgency."

The message is markedly different from previous statements by U.S. officials who spoke of quashing the insurgency by rounding up or killing "dead enders" loyal to former dictator Saddam Hussein. As recently as two weeks ago, in a Memorial Day interview on CNN's "Larry King Live," Vice President Dick Cheney said he believed the insurgency was in its "last throes."

But the violence has continued unabated, even though 44 of the 55 Iraqis portrayed in the military's famous "deck of cards" have been killed or captured, including Saddam.

Lt. Col. Frederick P. Wellman, who works with the task force overseeing the training of Iraqi security troops, said the insurgency doesn't seem to be running out of new recruits, a dynamic fueled by tribal members seeking revenge for relatives killed in fighting.

"We can't kill them all," Wellman said. "When I kill one I create three."

Last month was one of the deadliest since President Bush declared the end of major combat operations in May 2003, a month that saw six American troops killed by hostile fire. In May 2005, 67 U.S. soldiers and Marines were killed by hostile fire, the fourth-highest tally since the war began, according to Iraq Coalition Casualty Count, an Internet site that uses official casualty reports to organize deaths by a variety of criteria.

At least 26 troops have been killed by insurgents so far in June, bringing to 1,311 the number of U.S. soldiers killed by hostile action. Another 391 service members have died as a result of accidents or illness.

...

If this is true we need to bring them home.
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Old 06-13-2005, 05:11 PM   #48
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Originally posted by deep
I don't think so.





this is what I was referriing to

deep where do u live? im basing this on what i see in new york living here everyday. kids in public school not learning because their parents are nowhere to be found to help because they are too busy out smoking crack or doing other illegal activities or just arent being good parents.. this goes for all races, all religions...u seem like your hinting that i was making a racial comment. i was not. peoople blame the teachers or the school system for the problems. but it is not them. it is the parents of these kids who had them when they were young, the father took off because the sex wasnt about love or committment; it was about getting off, and are ill equipped to care for the baby/babies they have and then they end up on welfare, and are simply not their for their kids. then they go out and have more kids knowing theyll simply get welfare. i know tons of people in ireland who do the same thing...its not limited to new york and america. its a horrible cycle. adn my elders have nothing do with it, its based on obersvation. a friend of a friend is 22 years old, had 4 kids already, 4 different fathers and is on welfare bragging about how much moneyof my taxes she gets...that is just one scenario. i could tell u tons. surely, it is sad for the kids that these baby factories make, and they should be supported as it is not their fault. but sometning needs to be done to curtail the entitlement attitude and the reliance on the government.
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Old 06-16-2005, 12:13 AM   #49
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Originally posted by NYRangers78


deep where do u live?
real world

not fantasy land
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Old 06-16-2005, 12:15 AM   #50
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back on track

Bush has had enough cannon fodder


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Bipartisan Coalition Of Members To Hold Press Conference To Announce Legislation Calling on President to Set Plan For Beginning Phase-out of US Troops in Iraq
Reps. Jones (R-NC), Paul (R-TX), Abercrombie (D-HI), Kucinich (D-OH) To Hold Press Conference Thursday at 10:30am In House Radio TV Gallery

WASHINGTON - June 15 - A bipartisan coalition of Members of Congress will hold a press conference on Thursday, June 16th at 10:30am in the House Radio/TV Gallery (Room H-321) of the Capitol to introduce the first bipartisan legislation that will call on President Bush to set a plan for beginning the phase-out of US troops in Iraq.

Speaking at tomorrow's press conference will be Representatives Walter Jones (R-NC), Ron Paul (R-TX), Neil Abercrombie (D-HI) and Dennis J. Kucinich (D-OH), original cosponsors of the Joint Resolution.

The resolution is the first bipartisan legislation to set a start date for drawing down the numbers of US troops in Iraq.

Who: Reps. Jones (R-NC), Paul (R-TX), Abercrombie (D-HI) and Kucinich (D-OH)
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Old 06-16-2005, 12:23 AM   #51
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Yes the US should bring troops home; It should be done before 2008.
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Old 06-16-2005, 06:55 AM   #52
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Originally posted by deep


real world

not fantasy land
right...
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Old 06-16-2005, 06:56 AM   #53
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its hard to say when the troops should leave but they shouldnt just leave at predetermined certain point. things should be in as most order as possible before they leave.
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Old 06-28-2005, 01:37 PM   #54
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http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/c...l=chi-news-col

The sobering reality of the Iraq war

Suicide bombings have gained adherents not because so many fanatics are looking for an excuse to throw away their lives, but because they work

Steve Chapman


June 2, 2005

Watching the recent frenzy of violence in Iraq, Vice President Dick Cheney is not perturbed. Quite the contrary--he sounds practically elated. "We're making major progress," he said Monday. Iraq, he explained, is "in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency."

You know that secure, undisclosed location of his? I think we can be sure it's not on this planet.

On the same day Cheney was savoring his delusions, suicide bombers were striking in Iraq.

At least 25 people died and more than 100 were wounded when two coordinated blasts went off amid a crowd of former police officers in Hillah. That incident came the day after a spate of suicide attacks killed at least 16 people in Baghdad.

These were just the latest acts of carnage committed by enemies who killed 670 Iraqis in May--nearly 22 per day. That's on top of at least 76 American military deaths, a sharp increase from the previous two months.

In Iraq, everything that should be rising is falling, and everything that should be falling is rising. Fatalities from car bombings and suicide bombings have soared fivefold since November. Attacks on U.S. forces have been running at 70 a day, double the rate in March and April.

Iraqi government officials are the frequent target of assassinations and abductions. The governor of Anbar province, kidnapped May 10, was found dead Tuesday. There is an epidemic of death throes in Iraq, but the insurgency is very much alive.

We are not seeing major progress, and despite the wishful thinking in the White House, we aren't likely to anytime soon--if ever. One reason is that we're fighting a new kind of war that our leaders don't understand.

The administration depicts suicide bombings as a sign of desperation by vicious thugs who know their cause is doomed.

In fact, they are part of a conscious strategy that has a record of success in other places. Suicide bombing has gained adherents not because so many fanatics are looking for an excuse to throw away their lives, but because it works.

That's the conclusion of Robert Pape in his new book, "Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism." Pape, director of the Chicago Project on Suicide Terrorism at the University of Chicago, compiled a database of every suicide bombing and attack in the world from 1980 to 2003. What he discovered offers a sobering contrast to the optimistic predictions emanating from Washington.

Americans have trouble imagining how the insurgents could hope to succeed without any positive vision of Iraq's future--and for that matter without any apparent agenda except slaughtering people. But the core of their appeal is the same as that of most other suicide bombing campaigns: nationalistic opposition to a foreign military presence.

"From Hezbollah in Lebanon to Hamas on the West Bank to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam in Sri Lanka," Pape writes, "every group mounting a suicide campaign over the past two decades has had as a major objective--or as its central objective--coercing a foreign state that has military forces in what the terrorists see as their homeland to take those forces out." Even the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks were part of Al Qaeda's longstanding effort to force the U.S. to withdraw its forces from Saudi Arabia.

The Bush administration had the fond hope that the January elections in Iraq would strike a crippling blow against the insurgents. But the slaughter has continued unabated, which is not surprising. In the first place, democracy is utterly irrelevant to the insurgents' goal of ridding Iraq of foreign invaders. And Pape notes that these campaigns are invariably aimed at democratic governments, which are uniquely vulnerable to terrorism.

The dilemma the U.S. faces in fighting the insurgents is that military methods are not enough to solve the problem and may make it worse. If the movement is a reaction to the U.S. military presence, keeping American troops in Iraq amounts to fighting a fire with kerosene.

That explains why the longer we stay, the more suicide attacks we face. And it suggests that the only feasible strategy is to withdraw from Iraq and turn the fight over to the Iraqi government.

The alternative is to stay and keep doing what we've been doing for the last two years. But that approach has shown no signs of fostering success. It only promises to raise the cost of failure.
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Old 06-28-2005, 02:02 PM   #55
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That explains why the longer we stay, the more suicide attacks we face. And it suggests that the only feasible strategy is to withdraw from Iraq and turn the fight over to the Iraqi government.

The alternative is to stay and keep doing what we've been doing for the last two years. But that approach has shown no signs of fostering success. It only promises to raise the cost of failure.
A. Men . Seriously, I'm just curious-this whole thing with Iraq certainly won't happen overnight, so just how much longer does the Bush administration intend on keeping our troops there? Months? Years? Decades? No. Like stated, the Iraqi government should handle these problems. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the longer we stay there, the more we're looked at as occupying them instead of liberating them, and history has shown that people tend to have issues with that. It makes us look like liars, another thing people generally frown upon.

Angela
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Old 06-28-2005, 06:05 PM   #56
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You looked more like an occupying powere when you actually were the occupying power, but since sovereignty was handed over and the Iraqi's took control of their own infrastructure and government it looks less like an occupying power.

Stay until the Iraqi security forces can take over, leave gradually and have the Iraqi's fill the gap. It is just like Vietnamisation, a strategy that works effectively against an insurgency.
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Old 06-28-2005, 06:07 PM   #57
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
You looked more like an occupying powere when you actually were the occupying power, but since sovereignty was handed over and the Iraqi's took control of their own infrastructure and government it looks less like an occupying power.

Stay until the Iraqi security forces can take over, leave gradually and have the Iraqi's fill the gap. It is just like Vietnamisation, a strategy that works effectively against an insurgency.
Are you still here???

I would have hoped you would have followed King Monkey's plea for more troops by now.
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Old 06-28-2005, 06:27 PM   #58
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ASIS
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Old 06-28-2005, 06:30 PM   #59
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I beg your pardon?
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Old 06-28-2005, 06:31 PM   #60
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http://www.asis.gov.au/

A plausible consideration to be sure
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