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Old 12-28-2003, 05:31 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Why is this about Bush all of a sudden????

wow...ask a simple question and we are preaching about Rule of Law...
Well, don't you think that a discussion of whether someone is innocent until proven guilty or not has anything to do with the rule of law?

And it wasn't all about Bush - one poster made a comment about how he would hope the President would act in the situation, but other than that nobody talked about Bush.
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Old 12-28-2003, 05:37 AM   #17
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Originally posted by AcrobatMan
i see no similarity between osama and saddam or osama and milosevic
I see why people are comparing them, but I agree with you AcrobatMan. Saddam and Milosevic were leaders who committed horrible crimes against the people of the countries they ruled. There's a good case for Saddam receiving the same treatment as Milosevic did when captured. However, Osama bin Laden is in no way similar - he's not leader of a country, he's head of a group which has committed acts of terrorism against the citizens of several countries. You can't compare the crimes of Milosevic or Saddam with the crimes of Al Qaeda.
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Old 12-28-2003, 07:10 AM   #18
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It's this kind of situation where I really like more and more Ant's idea of hard labour. Sticking someone in a cell for the rest of their lives achieves absolutely nothing for too many people for it to be any kind of punishment or justice. I really doubt Osama would be quaking in his boots being stuck next to Joe Schmoe who robbed a 7-11 and shot 3 clerks as a result. While Marty's point about a trial being a fair display of the beauty of democracy, the justice system is one which is so flawed that it is not a commendable system for individuals like Bin Laden. You cant look someone like him square in the eye and say "You commandeered 4 planes killing 3000 plus in the process, as well as countless other acts. Therefore buddy, we are putting you in jail. How do ya like them apples!"
It's hopelessly insufficient.
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Old 12-28-2003, 07:30 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


Well, don't you think that a discussion of whether someone is innocent until proven guilty or not has anything to do with the rule of law?

And it wasn't all about Bush - one poster made a comment about how he would hope the President would act in the situation, but other than that nobody talked about Bush.
Beg to differ....that was a direct slam at Bush...but you can think otherwise...
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Old 12-28-2003, 07:32 AM   #20
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I wish there were some kind of VR machine....one that got into their mind....places him in a window of the trade tower....looking at the plane coming at him....day in ....day out....slow motion.....
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Old 12-28-2003, 07:35 AM   #21
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The international rules of war need to be rewritten to deal with terrorist and terrorist organizations. I do not believe that these people deserve to be dealt with in the same manner as the Geneva Convention affords the soldiers of Nations that meet on the fields of battle. This is a different scenario, a different war.

As for Osama...he has made it clear...he will not be captured....see this week's NEWSWEEK....
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Old 12-28-2003, 08:22 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I wish there were some kind of VR machine....one that got into their mind....places him in a window of the trade tower....looking at the plane coming at him....day in ....day out....slow motion.....
You think people like him know compassion, guilt, remorse, fear?
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Old 12-28-2003, 09:09 AM   #23
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not to mention the fact that once the virtual plane failed to make impact after six or seven viewings, i think he might catch on to the fact that there was nothing to worry about.

i think i felt what you were getting at, tho.
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Old 12-28-2003, 11:03 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
The international rules of war need to be rewritten to deal with terrorist and terrorist organizations. I do not believe that these people deserve to be dealt with in the same manner as the Geneva Convention affords the soldiers of Nations that meet on the fields of battle. This is a different scenario, a different war.

As for Osama...he has made it clear...he will not be captured....see this week's NEWSWEEK....
I agree. We need new laws to deal with these pieces of scum.
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Old 12-28-2003, 11:38 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bunbury
Innocent until proven guilty does NOT work for Osama, he's not your typical arrested armed robber
So this question is not valid.
What the hell are you talking about? Of course, it is valid, and, of course, "innocent until proven guilty" DOES work for Osama bin Laden.

In fact, I think we have plenty of evidence to PROVE his guilt--audio tapes, video tapes, etc. So this question, in many ways, is a non-issue, if only because he's given us PLENTY of evidence to PROVE his GUILT.

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Old 12-28-2003, 11:48 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
The international rules of war need to be rewritten to deal with terrorist and terrorist organizations. I do not believe that these people deserve to be dealt with in the same manner as the Geneva Convention affords the soldiers of Nations that meet on the fields of battle. This is a different scenario, a different war.
So, please, pose an alternative. Kill everyone on sight? I don't think we have to worry about that. Just look at the situation in Iraq? Lock everyone up and throw away the key? How is that any different than Guantanamo Bay? And, even then, will that satisfy us? Can we thus declare an end to the "war on terror"? No...then we'll just be afraid of retaliation from all the Arab world for killing and locking everyone up.

And I'm sure it will show a great example of "democracy-in-action" to all those autocratic nations we're trying to make American satellites. After all, how will it be any different than how their own governments would respond to criminals?

Melon
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Old 12-28-2003, 12:37 PM   #27
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Maybe if he wears a sweater in court and changes his hairdo a bit he'll be found not guilty

I think there's already sufficient evidence-I just want him captured ALIVE and brought to some sort of justice. I imagine many of the relatives of the victims of 9/11 might want the same.

Maybe Dean better stop inserting his foot in his mouth
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Old 12-28-2003, 02:11 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


So, please, pose an alternative. Kill everyone on sight? I don't think we have to worry about that. Just look at the situation in Iraq? Lock everyone up and throw away the key? How is that any different than Guantanamo Bay? And, even then, will that satisfy us? Can we thus declare an end to the "war on terror"? No...then we'll just be afraid of retaliation from all the Arab world for killing and locking everyone up.

And I'm sure it will show a great example of "democracy-in-action" to all those autocratic nations we're trying to make American satellites. After all, how will it be any different than how their own governments would respond to criminals?

Melon
Are you saying this is what we did in Iraq? Killed everyone on sight? Have we locked everyone up and thrown away the key? Even those whom we possibly have grounds to lock up we have not, for example Maqtada Al Sadr.

All I am saying is that this war against a terrorist organization does not fall within the rules of war as we have known it for the last century.

Can't we agree on that?
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Old 12-28-2003, 02:26 PM   #29
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And, as for revamping the rules for international terrorists....it may very well have eliminated Guantanimo....because it would have been defined.

peace
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Old 12-28-2003, 07:44 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I do not believe that these people deserve to be dealt with in the same manner as the Geneva Convention affords the soldiers of Nations that meet on the fields of battle.
What is the field of battle?

I think there's a problem here. It's not like hundreds of years ago where people met in a civilized fashion at a pre-determined field and then proceeded to kill each other and proclaim a victor.

In the Balkans, the soldiers of the Nations raped the women of the nations and gauged their eyes out. Is that meeting on the fields of battle? No. That is why there needs to be a War Crimes Court. Since suspicion of each other seems to be the flavour of the day, the chance of all nations agreeing to this is slim.
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