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Old 01-21-2007, 02:59 AM   #91
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Of course you do. He is employed by a corporation which can set rules for what constitutes acceptable behaviour.
Unless she sets the policy then she really doesn't; your support for anti-discrimination policy being set by corporations does also mean you would accept their right to keep him employed even if his behaviour was offensive?
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Old 01-21-2007, 08:54 AM   #92
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It's not about some actor keeping his job, it's about much more than that.

Just for starters, I doubt that guy sitting behind me at that skating show would have said the n word about a skater there (maybe he would have since he thinks that f word is acceptable)- but he found it perfectly acceptable to call Johnny a faggot, in public, to his young daughter. Why is that, and is that acceptable to anyone here? Would you say that to or around your kids about anyone, would you call someone a faggot? I don't see how an opinion about that scenario is all that further along in a continuum than using that word about and around a coworker.

And it's also about a member of a minority group who has been discriminated against for so long feeling it is acceptable to use such language about a member of another minority group. And other issues about people and how we treat each other.

The guy on the show is part of a much bigger picture, that's why it's worth discussing. If you don't agree, well that's your preference
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Old 01-21-2007, 10:58 AM   #93
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Yes, that's right, I don't agree.

The nonentity of an actor is part of a bigger picture, and I guess I just try and focus on the bigger picture. George W Bush and his vile party have far more influence over tolerance in your community than some guy on a tv show (who doesn't even do the bad stuff on the tv show, from what I can gather).
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Old 01-21-2007, 01:58 PM   #94
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
found it perfectly acceptable to call Johnny a faggot, in public, to his young daughter.

Oh my God!! You said "that word" again!! It's not meant for anybody but I'm still so very offended!! How dare you?!


See what I mean?
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Old 01-21-2007, 02:30 PM   #95
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy

Oh my God!! You said "that word" again!! It's not meant for anybody but I'm still so very offended!! How dare you?!
See what I mean?
Um, no-it's not the same thing. If you don't see that, it's a waste of time to try to explain.

And yes I'm well aware that GWB has more influence over tolerance, but thanks for the tutoring lesson anyway. Just because I start a thread like this doesn't mean I don't focus on the bigger picture, but it helps people to score "points" I suppose to try to say otherwise.
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Old 01-21-2007, 02:40 PM   #96
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Why do some of you people bother to start or post in threads like this. You rarely actually listen to each other, it takes maybe 2 pages worth of posts before you all adopt this very caustic and condescending tone, and then it just becomes this repetitive mess that resembles myriad threads that came before it. Who would want to actually engage in a serious discussion with someone who punctuates their every point with "but I guess you can't understand what I'm saying" or something equally obnoxious? How can I learn from someone like that when they're not really interested in educating me, they're either interested in proving me wrong or making me look stupid? I still lurk in here from time to time because occasionally, someone will post something genuine in here, something that's, for me, food for thought....but it's a rare nugget in a sea of ire, and I guess I finally was moved to post about it. I'm sure someone will quote this and put me down, too, but, so be it.

A little graciousness in here would go a long way.
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Old 01-21-2007, 02:59 PM   #97
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Originally posted by No spoken words
Why do some of you people bother to start or post in threads like this. You rarely actually listen to each other, it takes maybe 2 pages worth of posts before you all adopt this very caustic and condescending tone, and then it just becomes this repetitive mess that resembles myriad threads that came before it. Who would want to actually engage in a serious discussion with someone who punctuates their every point with "but I guess you can't understand what I'm saying" or something equally obnoxious? How can I learn from someone like that when they're not really interested in educating me, they're either interested in proving me wrong or making me look stupid? I still lurk in here from time to time because occasionally, someone will post something genuine in here, something that's, for me, food for thought....but it's a rare nugget in a sea of ire, and I guess I finally was moved to post about it. I'm sure someone will quote this and put me down, too, but, so be it.

A little graciousness in here would go a long way.
I'm not going to put you down, but..

To be fair you are assuming intent from what you read that may or may not even be there. It isn't there for me, not at all. Believe me I have no interest in proving anyone wrong here or making them look stupid, but I also am not going to sit back and let people make comments (and condescending ones sometimes) regarding my perspective that aren't accurate. Used to do that here all the time, not going to do it anymore. When you are discussing something and people make those types of comments towards you, it tends to create a certain attitude. I do my best to deal with that as best I can, but I'm only human. I have seen many people get away with much worse around here, so much more that is quite "obnoxious".

Brown Eyed Boy was insisting that what I said was somehow the same as what Washington did, and that's just silly- sorry, it is. I'm not just going to sit there and say, "ok, it is the same thing" when I have tried again and again to explain why I feel what Washington did was wrong . Yes I could have been nicer about it, sorry for that. And it's also tough to be nice when you feel someone is insulting you and/or being condescending (as was the case in other posts, not his).

It's also very easy to post in here and make evaluative comments (much easier than it is to try to have discussions with people, to be fair). I lose my patience sometimes in here, can't help it. I used to let so much slide in the interest of "graciousness". I have always done my best to be "gracious" here to people, if it's not up to someone else's standards well what can I do?
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Old 01-21-2007, 05:57 PM   #98
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I was not singling anyone out, and my post really applies to more than just this one thread. It just surprises me to see so much condescension in here, so much bile, so little actual listening. That's all.

For the record, I'm not assuming anything...I'm reading and I'm inferring and if I'm wrong then I'm wrong but I am not blind and sometimes, to me, the inent is clearly there, the choice of words proves it. Again, I sure could be wrong about that sometimes, but not all the time.

And, I agree with you, in this type of setting, it's much easier to simply post than to actually discuss, but sometimes that gap is wider than it needs to be, in my very humble opinion.

I'll go away now and return to lurking.
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Old 01-21-2007, 07:00 PM   #99
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Unless she sets the policy then she really doesn't; your support for anti-discrimination policy being set by corporations does also mean you would accept their right to keep him employed even if his behaviour was offensive?
Yes, I believe they have a right to exercise discretion in these cases. You have to look at things in context and determine how serious a breach of a rule is. Of course, this would still be subject to things like the human rights commission in your jurisdiction, or whatever it happens to be called, which would deal with matters of discrimination in legal terms.
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Old 01-21-2007, 07:11 PM   #100
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I agree the thread could've done without the back-and-forth (and it was definitely in both directions at times) as to who holds the moral high ground, or monopoly on reason, where language is concerned. But unfortunately it's difficult to debate a question like this without sliding towards that, as there isn't really a whole lot of middle ground here--though I think that may have been the position Kieran, amy and a few others were trying to take. There is something a bit discomfiting about one ugly incident behind the scenes at one workplace getting blown up into an international media spectacle (due to gossip columnists originally, I presume), as if one could somehow put the conscience of millions on trial and heal social fissures through it. On the other hand, ridiculing the impulse to have any reaction at all seems likewise holier-than-thou and appears to suggest unconcern for social equality, which language is certainly one expression of. It's the kind of issue that really requires a lot of nuance (from both sides) to debate effectively, and an Internet forum isn't always the best place for that; it can get pretty tiring trying to coax debating points out of sweeping hyperbole and many are going to get defensive or settle for simply responding in kind at that point.



To get back to the thread topic, I guess whether or not Isaiah Washington "should" be fired really depends on what ABC's policies concerning this kind of thing are and, apparently, none of us really knows the answer to that. I'm guessing the fact that he got an official rebuke from the network, then issued an apology, probably signals that that more or less is what ABC policy dictates about how to handle it, at least pending further misbehavior. Here at my school the policies are, I guess, a bit different from Lies' and redhotswami's--if one faculty member referred to another with a slur in the context of an argument with a third member, yes you would likely get a rebuke and the incident would go into your HR file, but nothing more than that. The policy was similar at the bookstore chain I used to manage a store for. My guess is Washington is probably currently under some kind of "three strikes and you're out"-type probationary watch but of course I don't really know.

By the way, I've never seen Grey's Anatomy, but wasn't it Isaiah Washington who played the gay Gulf War vet who gets picked on by a homophobic black actor in Get on the Bus?
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Old 01-21-2007, 07:26 PM   #101
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By the way, I've never seen Grey's Anatomy, but wasn't it Isaiah Washington who played the gay Gulf War vet who gets picked on by a homophobic black actor in Get on the Bus?
That really would be the sweetest of ironies.
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Old 01-21-2007, 07:59 PM   #102
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I agree the thread could've done without the back-and-forth (and it was definitely in both directions at times) as to who holds the moral high ground, or monopoly on reason, where language is concerned. But unfortunately it's difficult to debate a question like this without sliding towards that, as there isn't really a whole lot of middle ground here--though I think that may have been the position Kieran, amy and a few others were trying to take. There is something a bit discomfiting about one ugly incident behind the scenes at one workplace getting blown up into an international media spectacle (due to gossip columnists originally, I presume), as if one could somehow put the conscience of millions on trial and heal social fissures through it. On the other hand, ridiculing the impulse to have any reaction at all seems likewise holier-than-thou and appears to suggest unconcern for social equality, which language is certainly one expression of. It's the kind of issue that really requires a lot of nuance (from both sides) to debate effectively, and an Internet forum isn't always the best place for that; it can get pretty tiring trying to coax debating points out of sweeping hyperbole and many are going to get defensive or settle for simply responding in kind at that point.

I agree with most of what you say, and I even understand the limitations this type of forum places upon a healthy give and take....but that, to me, does not excuse how it sometimes spirals downwards to a name calling contest, or to a blatant dismissal of other's thoughts, or to being insulting in a passive aggressive way. But, as you say, maybe that's just an unavoidable circumstance in this type of medium. I'm sure I've had that impulse, and probably acted on it, too, somewhere in here.

As for the thread topic, I suppose I'll stick my 2 cents in and just say that while I find Washington's behavior inescusable, I don't think he should be fired unless he violated ABC's corporate policies. If someone uttered that word out loud at my job, in any context, I'm fairly sure that if HR got wind of it they'd be heavily disciplined or perhaps terminated..but that's where I work. Someone mentioned earlier on that if what he said was good for ratings, he'd not be in trouble at all with ABC, and truer words have never been spoken. Hollywood loves the phrase "there's no such thing as bad press"...but, when it draws the ire of powerful lobbies or interest groups, and might dent ratings, then all of a sudden the network will rise up with much indignation. As insane and hypocritical as American society and government can be, it's double in the Hollywood corporate community.

For the record, I've never seen this show.

Lastly, I'll say that I do not like that word, but am not going to sit there and pretend like I've never used it in my life. And, it's hard for me to get up in arms about some Hollywood dimwit using it, it just is. I agree, the power of words is strong, maybe immeasurable, but to me sometimes it's power is mitigated by who uses it, and in what context. Some actor on some show I've never seen using that word at a self-promoting Hollywood event just does not bother me all that much. But, I can see how it would bother others, and that's how a thread like this is born. And, sure there are bigger issues out there, maybe even issues centering on this very topic that are a lot more concerning than this example, but that should not preclude people from discussing it here or anywhere else.

Ok, I'll really truly slink back to where I came from and revert back to lurker status. Sorry!!!
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Old 01-28-2007, 12:38 AM   #103
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I am the supervisor in my department over 4 employees. If I ever hear anyone in my or any other department refer to the gay person(s) as a faggot, or anyone uses the n word referring to the African Americans, or any other derogatory slang in reference to the any other person, I WILL recommend they be fired.
I know the difference between kidding around and hate.
I will not tolerate intolerance. End of discussion..
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Old 01-28-2007, 11:19 AM   #104
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I know the difference between kidding around and hate.
And what, pray tell, is the difference in this situation? Particularly since you're only privy to the same information the rest of us are (propogated, as yolland pointed out, by gossip columnists).
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Old 01-30-2007, 08:55 AM   #105
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Funny enough, I don't think I want him fired over this, and it's only because I'd hate for his character on "Grey's Anatomy" to have an aborted storyline. I'm currently interested in the direction that he's going.
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