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Old 10-25-2006, 08:48 AM   #106
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:uP: great post maycocksean. i definately agree with what you're saying.

As i've said before, if guy ignores you or is horrible to you becaus eof how you look, you dont want him. Its as simple as that.
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Old 10-25-2006, 09:20 AM   #107
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Originally posted by maycocksean

I guess I disagree with what I understand to be your premise: that it is wrong for men to highly value attractiveness in a woman.
That's not my premise at all, sorry that it comes across that way. It is wrong for anyone to value attractiveness over all other things and to devalue the other important traits of women in favor of that. I'm not saying all men do that, just that to do that is fundamentally wrong. I want to be valued and appreciated for the other qualities I possess. I am however realistic, I think that most men would initially always choose someone who looks like something out of FHM or Maxim over me. I'm not delusional, or maybe it's just my poor self-esteem. Or a combination of both. And not always just initially-some people in general are so blinded by the physical/sexual/whatever you want to call it that they will delude themselves and/or overlook all other things-I have seen it happen, so it is just my experience.

For example, just from what I know about her on here-I think AvsGirl is intelligent, funny, and interesting. Not to mention I've seen her photos and she's beautiful. She puts herself down and that pisses me off but I don't know why guys aren't swarming all over her. Maybe they're too intimidated by all her great qualities, or maybe they're just f'ed up But she thinks it's because she doesn't fit some standard as she observes, and that's her experience as she described. Sorry, I didn't mean to pick on or embarrass you avsgirl. I think how we view this whole issue is highly influenced by our personal life experiences, and by other personal factors.


Of course you don't want a guy who ignores you because of how you look, but it doesn't make how it can make you feel about yourself any easier to just brush off. Like I said before, the key is to catch yourself in that behavior and to feel good about yourself in spite of that.

With maturity and experience, most men (and women) learn what you said-that beauty does involved so many other factors that make a person more beautiful to you. Maturity perhaps being the key-some men (and women) just don't outgrow it. And some really are just that superficial
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Old 10-25-2006, 12:43 PM   #108
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the fact of the matter is we all appreciate attractiveness.
if you're in a bar and you spot 2 guys/girls across the way - one who looks like a calvin klein cover model, the other who looks like their family has been inbreeding for 4 generations - you're going to elbow your mate in the ribs and point out the hottie. simple as, fact of life. and its NOT a male or female thing but a people thing

the thing is, before we get to meet someone the only thing we've got to go by is what they look like, so its easy and normal i think to react to that.
once we get talking to someone though its a completely different ball game and i think the majority of us, male and female, would walk away from a good looking ass to talk to a normal looking nice person. we learn pretty quickly i think



what i also worry you're in danger of here Mrs S, is flipping the coin completely.

you say its not fair that someone would pick a MAXIM model over you and that you want to be valued for the other qualities you possess too. shouldn't your maxim model be given that chance too? there's this complete generalisation that good looking people are just pretty empty shells and its not fair that the good looking person gets the dates over the nice person, when chances are the looker is a nice person too and are just as deserving of that chance.
They may have a great personality, be funny and intelligent and full of as many great qualities as you and i are, but we're supposed to ignore that and presume they don't have the qualities that "normal" people posses because they're hot?


it would be ignorant, insulting and unfair of us to look at 2 people on the opposite ends of the looks spectrum and presume the uglier one is a nicer person just because they're not good looking.
I've known plenty of normal looking and unattractive people who are complete wankers and i know several good looking guys and girls who are wonderful people - my boyfriend for example, he's gorgeous but that doesn't mean he's not nice, he is in fact wonderful
now imagine if i'd spied him across the crowd and though "ooh, he's hot... bet he's a prick then" and ignored him for it to hit on the uglier guy next to me because he's "probably nicer".
its as equally unfair to do that as it is to do the opposite.

maycock sean hit the nail on the head (again - great posts mate) when he said good looking people with bad personalities ugly up pretty quick and nice people have a beauty that grows with their personality as you get to know it.

and for those who don't learn that lesson and stay with the looks, well then kind sticks to kind - good looking people who will only go out with other good looking people regardless of their personalities will have partners who are just as shallow as them.
once again, its not loss to the rest of us so i don't know why we let it bother us.

completely ignoring looks though i can tell you what is unattractive to men and women alike and that's low self-esteem. so stop looking in the mirror and moaning that you don't look like the model on TV because you're getting yourself into a vicious circle - you think you're unattractive so self-esteem plummets and you become (not just physically) unattractive so you look in the mirror and think yourself unattractive and round and round we go.

do what you want everyone else to do and stop focusing on the physical, this time your own, and find those other qualities you want people to appreciate you for and be proud of them and happy with them and make the best of them and the world will see a different - and far more attractive - person.
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Old 10-25-2006, 01:23 PM   #109
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Let's face it: women have set this ridiculous standard for women from time immemoriable. And we teach our boys to see these ridiculously skinny, overinflated woemn as attractive, because women will sit there and whine about not having a perfect body, knowing it isn't necessary. I mean, think about it: Adam is a far cry from 'hot' in the sense that Larry is, but who here would say that he isn't stunningly beautiful when he smiles? Not very many.

The question is; why do women feel it's even remotely important to e eye candy? because we've been tault that you have to get a man and have kids in order to be a whole, complete woman.
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Old 10-25-2006, 04:50 PM   #110
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I'm not presuming anything about the good looking person digsy, and honestly you should really give me more credit than that. I am well aware that good looking doesn't mean one doesn't possess good qualities and isn't a nice person. I've been around this earth more than long enough to know that I am merely saying that, given the choice, the Maxim chick would always win out. As I said, knowing nothing about the person prior and going just on looks-so they would have no idea what either of us are like- my whole premise was based on looks. That doesn't equal me presuming anything about her personality (that was a whole different example I gave of any good looking person who is a jerk). I don't presume things about anyone's other qualities based on looks, I presume after they demonstrate their personalities to me. I don't think that the majority would always walk away from a good looking ass though, it's just been my experience. Some people like assholes too. Guys and women are both guilty of that. It's not just assholes who like assholes either, it can be nice guys and women.

Honestly my self esteem issues really have to do with other things besides models and Maxim, so you can't presume that either.
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Old 10-25-2006, 05:33 PM   #111
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ok fair enough
i'm just saying that the good looking person has just as good a chance as being a nice person as the not so good looking one so why shouldn't they get approached?

and i re-read those last few paragraphs of mine - they came out rather beratingly which they weren't meant to be and i apologise for that. i wasn't presuming anything and i wasn't having a go as it may have seemed. people have low self esteem issues for various reasons and while it looked personal, i was aiming that out at everyone not just you - i just picked it out of your post about thinking a guy is going to go for the maxim model as opposed to you blaming a combination of lack of delusion and low self esteem.

its just like the starter of this thread felt and what you said about avsgirl - its very frustrating when people put themselves down unnecessarily and it can make such a huge difference as to how people perceive each other. confidence and happiness with one self is visible a mile away and is very very attractive in both sexes, while lack of self-esteem and people who dont believe their own worth are a turn off.
its really just digging one's own grave.
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Old 10-25-2006, 07:20 PM   #112
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And I'm just saying the good looking person shouldn't automatically get approached over the not so good looking one just because of that, not that the good looking one shouldn't get approached at all I'm hardly that mean..

I don't know, just speaking personally I don't trust people who don't have self esteem issues. I just tend to empathize completely with girls/ women who don't get their deserved attention from men (I'm not saying you don't digsy). I can tell someone like avsgirl how great I think she is until I'm blue in the face, but I also can't put myself in any position of judging why she feels a certain way. I have been there, done that, seen the TV movie. And the movie is always on reruns, it's still not quite over and might not ever really be. It was only coming through all that and discovering things about myself by myself that I really started to feel beautiful-and I want that for all the women and girls that I see for how great they really are.

I don't want to come across as some woman whose self esteem is dependent upon affirmation from men. I don't get that and have rarely gotten it in my life-not in the way that I desire. I don't crave it, I don't need it. I do my best not to seek it. Yes people are people and hurtful things do always happen. If my self esteem was dependent upon it though I probably would have given up a long time ago. But on the other hand I sympathize with "my" girls. Persevering and finding your true worth is a struggle for many women, but it is well worth it. It's one of the best benefits of getting older too, being in your 20's is still a tough time for most women I would imagine.
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Old 10-25-2006, 08:28 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


That's not my premise at all, sorry that it comes across that way.
No problem. Thanks for clarifying.

Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
It is wrong for anyone to value attractiveness over all other things and to devalue the other important traits of women in favor of that.
I agree.

Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
I think that most men would initially always choose someone who looks like something out of FHM or Maxim over me.
Well, I don't know about that. I mean I don't know you, I don't know what you look like, so whose to say really.

I've been debating whether to say this or not, because I didn't want to come across as weird or creepy, but I'm going to go ahead and let the chips fall where they may because I think it illustrates my point. I know this may sound weird, but I always find myself assuming that all of the women posting at FYM are good looking. I generally don't look at profiles or anything like that, so for most of you, I have no idea what you look like. But in my mind's eye "everyone is beautiful." And you know what, I think it's because you all are. Your posts are intelligent, witty, thought-provoking--in a word, beautiful. It's only natural (though not reasonable) to associate good personalities with good looks. And as I've already pointed out, a great personality can dramatically improve a person's appearance.

Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
And not always just initially-some people in general are so blinded by the physical/sexual/whatever you want to call it that they will delude themselves and/or overlook all other things-I have seen it happen, so it is just my experience.
This is true. But aren't those of us that won't be gracing the covers any magazines anytime soon grateful that such shallow people WON'T be pursuing us. We never have to ask ourselves "does he/she truly like me for me, or is it just my looks" And for those of us with the looks of a model, isn't a bit of pain that we're going to have fend off such superficial people?

Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
I don't know why guys aren't swarming all over her. Maybe they're too intimidated by all her great qualities, or maybe they're just f'ed up
I'll concede also that there are some guys that are intimidated by a strong woman, and perhaps even more so by a strong beautiful woman. Those insecure men lose out and the strong woman wins because hopefully such fellows will weed themselves out of her life.


Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen

I am merely saying that, given the choice, the Maxim chick would always win out.
Only initially. But in the long run (except in the case of truly superficial people), personality will win the day.
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Old 10-25-2006, 08:34 PM   #114
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*starts to wonder how many women in FYM are sighing and thinking that maycocksean's wife is the luckiest woman alive*
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Old 10-25-2006, 09:20 PM   #115
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Haha well something tells me she's both strong and beautiful and that he would say HE is the lucky one.

This discussion has been so interesting to follow.

Mrs. S, your comment about the Maxim chick always winning out jumped out at me - mostly because I guess I want to know in what context. What does winning out mean - being approached in a bar? Getting checked out at the grocery store? Getting a boyfriend/husband? Being selected from a pile of photos - for what - quality alone time with the photo or a conversation with the person in the photo...you get my general drift.

I could be way off base, but I don't think guys (and women) use the same criteria for a quick pick up in bar as they would when they are seeking genuine companionship...so while the criteria may still be initially physical, the "winning" quality might be as simple as a friendly smile.
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Old 10-25-2006, 09:28 PM   #116
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Quote:
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Actually, just about every one of them I run into. I work in a college office so I have to encounter hundreds of freshmen a day. Without a doubt, 50% of them are thin, blond and perfect--and are accompanied by some Brad Pitt lookalike.

Anytime I have gone out, no guy will approach me because there's plenty of pieces of blond perfection lined up at the bar for him to talk to. Or if he did show an interest, he drops me and goes for one of them instead. Same with all my jobs and classes. No matter how long I've gotten along with a guy, he'll go for the first thin blonde who wanders by.

Average girls seem to be more and more in the minority. Maybe they are all able to afford plastic surgery these days. But no guy in my age group will pick my Slavic looks and short legs over a beanpole FHM model.

Maybe it's just that some girls are luckier than others and have that special something. Who knows? I just don't buy the confidence theory anymore. Honestly, the more confident I am the less attractive I seem to be to men.
Nobody is perfect. I do believe confidence has a part to play. I wouldn't want to go out with someone who believed I'd dump him for the first Brad Pitt lookalike who ran by. I want someone to have confidence in me and themselves.

Men might go after the blondes in the bars but how many of them actually get into a (long-term) relationship? Here people don't really go out to clubs to find a girlfriend or relationship as far as I know. Girls like oogling at the pretty boy on the dance floor and the blokes like chatting up a group of girls tottering around but it never goes further than a bit of a laugh.

Looks are important, of course but they aren't the be all and end all. I'm not lucky or have a special something. I know I am average. I am not thin by any stretch of the imagination, I'm pale, I have short legs, I don't have supermodel hair or trendy clothes but I am with someone who would say that I was the most perfect person on the planet. Not every guy goes after the "blonde piece of perfection" or else I'd really be snookered.

I really think you're a very pretty and intelligent person, avsgirl. Its sad to see people so hard on themselves.
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Old 10-25-2006, 10:13 PM   #117
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Quote:
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Haha well something tells me she's both strong and beautiful and that he would say HE is the lucky one.

Yup!
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Old 10-26-2006, 08:46 AM   #118
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Quote:
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*starts to wonder how many women in FYM are sighing and thinking that maycocksean's wife is the luckiest woman alive*
Yeah and well I just don't know or meet that many men who are like him. I don't mean to slam men, but I just don't and haven't over my lifetime. He is demonstrative and completely open about his fantastic way of thinking (at the very least that's how it comes across on here) and that is so very refreshing and appealing- whereas so many men, well to be kind it's like trying to pull a camel through the eye of a needle. And then of course there are just the a holes. Honestly I am just tired of both scenarios. Avoidance is my new black, but that's really nothing new. I have other issues too.

I am merely talking about initial impressions when I talk about the "Maxim chick", being checked out, whatever you want to call it-not any sort of long term or meaningful thing. I'm not hideous or anything (maybe to some people I am, who knows-beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I for one find many different types of men and women attractive, sometimes it can be "odd and quirky"), there are some things I like about the way I look. But I am realistic about men given the way that view has been colored by my experiences and observations. I guess that "realism" is jaded and can be unfair, but that's the honest way I feel based upon my experiences and observations-I can't pretend. The absence of certain things is an affirmation, if you know what I mean. No behavior can be just as affirming as negative behavior. Not to mention that when you start to reach certain ages, you feel even more invisible. But the best part of all of it is that having certain experiences makes you more assertive and more aware of what you start to think you deserve. I am a much stronger person now than I ever was when I was younger, but that little voice always creeps in-honestly usually daily. You just have to be aware of it and do your best to deal with it.
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Old 10-27-2006, 05:21 AM   #119
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First of all, I'd be delighted to have someone like maycocksean in my stocking for Christmas.

I think a woman's sense of her own attractiveness and validity usually comes quite young. If that is messed with, it is a hard thing to recover. On the flip side, if a young girl is sexual prey, she may grow up fearing or downplaying her own beauty, not valuing it. For both, it might take healthy male attention to begin recovering her sense of of self and power, both sexually and romantically.

We all notice when we are being invalidated. Parents invalidate, so do bosses, acquaintances, spouses, strangers. It is the reason we hate going through a hundred phone prompts to reach a person, being ignored deliberately or neglectfully by an inattentive waiter, having your coworker being given credit for the work you did. We all suffer invalidations every day.

The need for sexual validation is primal in most people. And this is, I think exactly, what most of the discontent is saying. Both sexes experience it. The invalidation you feel when somebody of the opposite sex (or same sex, if you are gay) looks right through you, not acknowledging your presence as if you are not there.
Very few people's confidence can withstand that time and time again. You either shut down or develop other defenses--the wise cracking best friend of the star syndrome or something entirely different.

None of that means you lack confidence in other areas--although sadly enough, validating or invalidating people based on their appearance creeps into too many areas where it shouldn't be relevant. I think that burdens women more than it burdens men.

For all of the nice sounding "you have to confident" advice I saw here, confidence is fed by positive feedback in whatever area. If you need positive feedback every waking second, you're delusional. Nobody gets that. If you need it just enough, you are being normal. And everybody requires a minimum daily requirement of positive feedback to feel confident.
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Old 10-27-2006, 08:44 AM   #120
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