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Old 10-22-2006, 06:20 PM   #91
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Originally posted by maycocksean

Sad, but I have to agree this is true. I'd be hard pressed to name an "ugly" female musician. On the other hand, naming an "ugly" male artist would take about five seconds.


Why is this, I wonder? Is that just the way the industry is? Or do all woman musicians just "happen" to be very attractive? perhaps the industry as a whole is male-dominated, thus these standards set.

Quote:
I care to disprove it. Face trumps body every time for me.
glad to hear it not to say that body shouldnt be a factor in attraction - it's always going to be, obviously, and if you have a nice body you should be proud of it. face just shows more of who you truly are, imo. it's more personal, less carnal. a million guys can have a killer body but every face is different.

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I optimistically believe that every woman is or will be the Most Beautiful Girl In the World to some man at some point in their lives.
you make good posts

Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
It's not the importance of physical attractiveness that is the issue, it's the prioritizing of physical attractiveness and the limiting of it to such standards that most women can never recreate in the real world. I'm not saying all or most men do that, but many do. I do believe that the media creates those standards not only for women, but for men too. I find it difficult to believe that men who view porn (or FHM or similar magazines) on a regular basis don't compare the average woman to that. I can look at pictures of good looking men until my eyes are crossed , but I don't go out and compare any or all men to them or have unrealistic expectations because of it. I wonder how (and how much) men and women are different in that regard.
good points... maybe it's because, as someone else said before, there seems to be plenty of "perfect" looking women out there already
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Old 10-22-2006, 06:39 PM   #92
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I think Jessica Simpson is really ugly and scary and evil looking.
She has a great body though.



I do have to say though that sometimes we put it on ourselves. I'm plenty skinny or maybe just fit because I'm an athlete. I illogically am unhappy with my body even though I hang out with a group of friends where there's no pressure to have a certain body type. A friend of mine who is skinnier than me (though not at all unhealthy) recently started dating a guy who I kind of liked. So part of me is gonna be like- dammit if I were as thin as her... Of course logically I know that has nothing to do with it. I'm just pointing out that I know a lot of girls including myself tend to put more emphasis on that part of ourselves when other people/guys might not even be thinking about it.

Of course there are legitimate examples where guys do tend to go more for a certain body type but I think we blow it out of proportion for ourselves.
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Old 10-23-2006, 02:16 AM   #93
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thanks sean

I think I've more or less exhausted what I have to say on this subject, but I'm still enjoying reading everyone's responses...this has been a really good discussion.
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Old 10-23-2006, 08:25 AM   #94
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Originally posted by VertigoGal
I think Jessica Simpson is really ugly and scary and evil looking.

.
Amen!!!

I'm not making any judgements about her as a person. I just don't find her attractive at all.
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Old 10-23-2006, 08:48 AM   #95
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Originally posted by AvsGirl41

It's hard to be a girl. That's all there is to it. For some reason men desire the ideal--and they generally find it. There are seemingly plenty of perfect girls out there. What the rest of us are supposed to do, I have no idea.
Good thread. I wish I was more awake and coherent to comment on so many more posts. I agree that today it's hard to feel your looks/body are right when you are bombarded by images of these perfect models and actresses, avsgirl but how many girls do you really know who are "perfect" and are in a a relationship?

If I think of "perfect" girls I imagine the girls I went to school with - thin, perfect make-up, perfect hair, a wardrobe full of trendy clothes, etc and all those girls are single and spend every weekend out trawling for a boyfriend. They also don't seem very happy, they spend most of their time complaining and being miserable and that is not attractive.

All of us, not only men, search for the ideal. I think, in the end, it's got very little to do with looks or weight which is, sadly, what a lot of people I know equate with finding a partner or being happy. There's a lot of things I could change about my body, I'm far from perfect and I'm not the smartest person around. I have plenty of bad habits, too.

As digsy picked up on, these girls had this conversation not because of girls in a magazine but because of that girl in the corner that can make us feel threatened. We can spend too long worrying about what other people. The grass is always greener.

I know there are five people (even though they might tell me I talk too much and can change the subject three times without taking a breath and bore them by dragging them out shopping and telling them all about what's in fashion right now) who would really miss me if something happened to me. Despite all my faults, if anyone was to ask my family or boyfriend about me they'd say I was perfect. They encouarge me to be optimistic and while I might say my geography is woeful and I am a wuss when it comes to flying they remind me that I can speak other languages and have lived and worked abroad for a year. I think having people like that around you can be wonderful. They are the people who matter the most to me. I just want to keep healthy, there's already too much illness in my family, and do the things that I love doing. If I spent my time worrying and being negative about my looks or how certain things haven't gone right for me, I'd never want to leave the house.

I am not saying that everyone who has issues with their body image can just change their attitude, sometimes it's a lot more than that but in a lot of cases I think it has a lot to do with being positive and focusing on what you can do and can change.
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Old 10-24-2006, 07:15 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by AtomicBono

One more point... I sometimes think that when it comes to physical attraction to the opposite sex (don't know about the same sex), girls are much more attracted to face while guys are much more attracted to body. If a guy has a perfect body but an average face and another guy has what I view to be a very attractive face (nice smile, eyes, nose, mouth, all of it...and hair too) and an average (or even less than average) body, I'd pick the second guy every time. My guess is that most guys, unless a girl is truly "busted," would pick a nice body and average face over a pretty face and average body. But that's just my theory. Anyone care to disprove it?
A couple of years ago I met my favourite singer (the guy in my avatar) after a gig. We were talking about his artwork (he'd recently begun painting and selling his work and we had corresponded quite a bit about that online) and he was trying to explain why he was so interested in portraiture. Suddenly he brightened and said "you know it's like when you watch porno. You don't want to just see bodies, you want to see the faces."

I couldn't help but laugh, but when I thought about it more, well, I had to agree with him.

So does that qualify him as a "face" guy?


Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean


I find that most of these retouched and glammed up examples of "beauty" remove all the personality from the model, and that's more than half of what makes a woman sexy IMHO.
Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


How many men really feel that way, and if they do why don't they openly express it?

After all, they're not buying Playboy for the personalities
The same guy as above had a very long flight earlier this year and was subjected to several "reality" tv programs (one of those "I wanna be a model" shows and The Apprentice were among the shows). This experience produced a very long (and often very funny) rant about several subjects including what makes an attractive woman. Here are some excerpts (he tends to go off on tangents so I'm just keeping the stuff that's actually on this subject):

Quote:
theres this one show comes on
oh god it reviles me..
consisting of a "panel of fashion experts"
and a bunch of silly women
desperate to be models or actresses or just anything
...as long as it involved being famous for half a second
these unfortunate imbeciles are given 4 minutes
chucked into a room full of clothes n makeup
(how sk fucking LOATHES makeup!!)
and then one by one
they strut their sad desperate stuff in fronta the ex-spurts
....
judging these poor fools who so wanna desperately be judged
i feel so sorry for em
....
aint anyone out there opposing this ....
people, yer beautiful as you are
you dont need this crap
god i was fuming in my aisle seat
....
i dont want my daughters to think they gotta be
sexy or sleazy
i just want them to be who they wanna be
....
i tell ya people
be yerselves
find yer own beauty inner and outer
and ladies
believe me
i'm a man
i know a lotta other men
we dinnae like loads of make up or emaciated women
we dinnae care about paris fashion catwalks versace bullshit
we like happy healthy women who think fer themselves
ITS THE TRUTH

i dunno
who have i upset today?
probably someone right now
burning their copy of my records
are we really gonna let the world turn into this?
is that all we are, us humans
flat abs, tit implanted botoxed madeup success seeking travesties
chasing some luxury condo
with wall to wall tv screens n and a microwaved sausage?

count me out then fiendss
i like my people au naturelle
happy, healthy and in tune with the spirit
I suspect having five daughters -- two of them teenagers -- has a bit to do with his reaction. We talked a couple of months ago and he said he was disturbed by the pressure on girls to always be pretty to be perceived as valuable. I hope for their sakes that having parents who don't buy in to the current "standard" of beauty helps them avoid getting a destructive self image.
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Old 10-24-2006, 07:36 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


... for ignoring women because they don't look like something out of FHM or Maxim (and/or insulting them because they don't), for objectifying women and for valuing them only for their looks....

It's not the importance of physical attractiveness that is the issue, it's the prioritizing of physical attractiveness and the limiting of it to such standards that most women can never recreate in the real world. I'm not saying all or most men do that, but many do.
i got to say, thats the one part i disagree with... i don't think that many men do this, i really don't.

yeah sure, there's always going to be the 1 in 1000 gorgeous guy who has so many woman throwing themselves at him that he can take his pick and probably would pick the thinniest/prettiest etc etc, but i wouldn't be surprised if the 1 in 1000 gorgeous woman did the same. i don't think its a male thing that people do this, it's purely just an arrogance thing that comes with both sexes vainly thinking themselves exceptionally attractive.

obviously thats a complete generalisation - just because someone is good looking doesn't make them an automatic bastard/bitch.
i'm just saying that the kind of guy who is guilty of "prioritizing of physical attractiveness and the limiting of it to such standards that most women can never recreate in the real world" isn't the kind of guy that normal, pretty or otherwise women would want to be within 100ft of anyway, and he's likely to only find himself surrounded by women with the same ridiculous standards. no one elses loss if you ask me.

maycocksean put it nicely with this:

Quote:
I optimistically believe that every woman is or will be the Most Beautiful Girl In the World to some man at some point in their lives. And vice versa.
i really think your average nice guy is going to love adore and find attractive an average nice girl. yeah he might drool at maxim but i don't think that means he's incapable of find a normal woman attractive too.

isn't there that whole thing about how women worry about what men think when they see them naked - is my bum big, are my thighs dimply, does my stomach wobble, did i get a bikini wax - when really all men are thinking is "wooh, she's naked!!!"
they really don't give a shit about the details
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Old 10-24-2006, 08:45 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by digsy


i got to say, thats the one part i disagree with... i don't think that many men do this, i really don't.

yeah sure, there's always going to be the 1 in 1000 gorgeous guy who has so many woman throwing themselves at him that he can take his pick and probably would pick the thinniest/prettiest etc etc, but i wouldn't be surprised if the 1 in 1000 gorgeous woman did the same. i don't think its a male thing that people do this, it's purely just an arrogance thing that comes with both sexes vainly thinking themselves exceptionally attractive.

obviously thats a complete generalisation - just because someone is good looking doesn't make them an automatic bastard/bitch.
i'm just saying that the kind of guy who is guilty of "prioritizing of physical attractiveness and the limiting of it to such standards that most women can never recreate in the real world" isn't the kind of guy that normal, pretty or otherwise women would want to be within 100ft of anyway, and he's likely to only find himself surrounded by women with the same ridiculous standards. no one elses loss if you ask me.

maycocksean put it nicely with this:



i really think your average nice guy is going to love adore and find attractive an average nice girl. yeah he might drool at maxim but i don't think that means he's incapable of find a normal woman attractive too.

isn't there that whole thing about how women worry about what men think when they see them naked - is my bum big, are my thighs dimply, does my stomach wobble, did i get a bikini wax - when really all men are thinking is "wooh, she's naked!!!"
they really don't give a shit about the details
excellent post, disgy
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Old 10-24-2006, 09:12 AM   #99
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Well it isn't the kind of guy I want to be around, and I never said it was- but I stand by my opinion that most women internalize it (when they feel rejected and ignored by the opposite sex), whereas most men in general externalize it. Whether that's socialization, hiding real emotions, bigger egos-whatever the reasons are.

I just have to wonder, if we took a survey of men-all types, all ages, all shapes and sizes-how many would choose someone from Maxim, FHM, etc for a date (I'm not talking about a long term relationship) vs how many would choose an average looking or even better what society considers an unattractive woman. It tends to be an ego issue for men (I don't see how anyone can honestly deny that it's an ego issue for a man to "get" a good/great looking woman, and that that is the reason that many of them will only pursue that), and I still do believe as a generalization that physical attractiveness in the opposite sex is more important for them than it is for women. Of course we could take the same survey of women. Maybe if we threw in a variable such as-the great looking woman has an awful personality and she's just not a nice person while the other woman is the complete opposite- same for the man. You know that going in, it's not something that reveals itself during the date.

I know that I would choose the average/"unattractive" guy over the great looking jerk, even for the one off date. I have seen too many guys put up with (and completely overlook the fact that she is) a very nasty woman because they're hot for her and her looks to ever believe that is a myth. Of course there are women who will put up with a guy for the same reason or other reasons, I'm not saying it's limited to men and I never would.
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Old 10-24-2006, 06:30 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lara Mullen


Good thread. I wish I was more awake and coherent to comment on so many more posts. I agree that today it's hard to feel your looks/body are right when you are bombarded by images of these perfect models and actresses, avsgirl but how many girls do you really know who are "perfect" and are in a a relationship?
Actually, just about every one of them I run into. I work in a college office so I have to encounter hundreds of freshmen a day. Without a doubt, 50% of them are thin, blond and perfect--and are accompanied by some Brad Pitt lookalike.

Anytime I have gone out, no guy will approach me because there's plenty of pieces of blond perfection lined up at the bar for him to talk to. Or if he did show an interest, he drops me and goes for one of them instead. Same with all my jobs and classes. No matter how long I've gotten along with a guy, he'll go for the first thin blonde who wanders by.

Average girls seem to be more and more in the minority. Maybe they are all able to afford plastic surgery these days. But no guy in my age group will pick my Slavic looks and short legs over a beanpole FHM model.

Maybe it's just that some girls are luckier than others and have that special something. Who knows? I just don't buy the confidence theory anymore. Honestly, the more confident I am the less attractive I seem to be to men.
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Old 10-24-2006, 06:36 PM   #101
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[i]Originally posted by digsy [/i

isn't there that whole thing about how women worry about what men think when they see them naked - is my bum big, are my thighs dimply, does my stomach wobble, did i get a bikini wax - when really all men are thinking is "wooh, she's naked!!!"
they really don't give a shit about the details [/B]

wow I hope that's true
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Old 10-24-2006, 06:44 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally posted by the soul waits


excellent post, disgy

I second that!


(Had a good laugh at the "wooo, she's naked!" part, hehe. )

I think when it comes down to it we're all just too damn hard on ourselves for not living up to whatever standard we set in our mind as being ideal. I know I'm very guilty of that, but in the last few years I have been better, or so I like to think, about thinking about the way I look and how what I feel is projected when I venture out into the world. I'm not always successful, but when I have a "hot" day, watch out!
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Old 10-25-2006, 05:58 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally posted by AtomicBono


Why is this, I wonder? Is that just the way the industry is? Or do all woman musicians just "happen" to be very attractive? perhaps the industry as a whole is male-dominated, thus these standards set.



It's simply because "ordinary" does not sell.
But that's OK.....having an entourage of make-up artists,hairdressers and stylists following you around and making you look pretty for the new video so the silly little people will buy your record can be a good thing for your bank account.......unfortunately this is the reality.

PS: I was told i looked tired today...........I was'nt..........I just could not be bothered to wear makeup!
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Old 10-25-2006, 06:55 AM   #104
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Originally posted by redkat



wow I hope that's true
It is, I promise you.
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Old 10-25-2006, 07:12 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen

I just have to wonder, if we took a survey of men-all types, all ages, all shapes and sizes-how many would choose someone from Maxim, FHM, etc for a date (I'm not talking about a long term relationship) vs how many would choose an average looking or even better what society considers an unattractive woman. It tends to be an ego issue for men (I don't see how anyone can honestly deny that it's an ego issue for a man to "get" a good/great looking woman, and that that is the reason that many of them will only pursue that), and I still do believe as a generalization that physical attractiveness in the opposite sex is more important for them than it is for women.
I believe it as well. It's what I've been saying all along. I'm not trying to step on your toes, Mrs. S. You know I respect you deeply, and so I hope you won't misunderstand what I'm sayig or take offense. But it seems to me that you want physical attractiveness not to be as important to men as it is. You want us to be more like women (for whom looks is less of an issue). And I just think that's a losing battle. Of course a man will initially choose an attractive woman over an average or less attractive woman. Physical attractiveness is a big deal to us. However, our standards for beauty are nowhere near the impossibly high standard set by the media. And while a guy may not "pick" a "less attractive" woman that doesn't mean that he won't that through the course of the natural interactions of normal life, he wouldn't come to find her gorgeous, even he didn't feel that way at first. I mean let's face it, how often do guys really have the opportunity to pick from a bevy of women anyway. In real life, relationships--healthy ones, anyway, develop organically out of the interactions that make up our lives.

I guess I disagree with what I understand to be your premise: that it is wrong for men to highly value attractiveness in a woman.

I do not think that most men value beauty to the exclusion of all else. In fact, beauty is often a function of personality. I've seen more than one woman who I initially thought was really gorgous, "ugly up" quickly as I got to know her and found she wasn't such a nice person. Vice versa, women I may not have looked at twice at first, grow more and more beautiful as I get to know them and find out what amazing people they are.

Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
Of course we could take the same survey of women. Maybe if we threw in a variable such as-the great looking woman has an awful personality and she's just not a nice person while the other woman is the complete opposite- same for the man. You know that going in, it's not something that reveals itself during the date.
And how often do we know what a person's like going in? I know guys tend to think: "Oh, she's pretty. I bet she's also really smart and funny and kind too." We'd like to believe that--the "Natalie Portman" fantasy I call it--but it certainly isn't always true.
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