Shocked by body image confessions

[AtomicBono]

Sad, but I have to agree this is true. I'd be hard pressed to name an "ugly" female musician. On the other hand, naming an "ugly" male artist would take about five seconds.

Why is this, I wonder? Is that just the way the industry is? Or do all woman musicians just "happen" to be very attractive? perhaps the industry as a whole is male-dominated, thus these standards set.

I care to disprove it. Face trumps body every time for me.

glad to hear it not to say that body shouldnt be a factor in attraction - it's always going to be, obviously, and if you have a nice body you should be proud of it. face just shows more of who you truly are, imo. it's more personal, less carnal. a million guys can have a killer body but every face is different.

I optimistically believe that every woman is or will be the Most Beautiful Girl In the World to some man at some point in their lives.

you make good posts

Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
It's not the importance of physical attractiveness that is the issue, it's the prioritizing of physical attractiveness and the limiting of it to such standards that most women can never recreate in the real world. I'm not saying all or most men do that, but many do. I do believe that the media creates those standards not only for women, but for men too. I find it difficult to believe that men who view porn (or FHM or similar magazines) on a regular basis don't compare the average woman to that. I can look at pictures of good looking men until my eyes are crossed , but I don't go out and compare any or all men to them or have unrealistic expectations because of it. I wonder how (and how much) men and women are different in that regard.

good points... maybe it's because, as someone else said before, there seems to be plenty of "perfect" looking women out there already

 

[VertigoGal]

I think Jessica Simpson is really ugly and scary and evil looking.
She has a great body though.



I do have to say though that sometimes we put it on ourselves. I'm plenty skinny or maybe just fit because I'm an athlete. I illogically am unhappy with my body even though I hang out with a group of friends where there's no pressure to have a certain body type. A friend of mine who is skinnier than me (though not at all unhealthy) recently started dating a guy who I kind of liked. So part of me is gonna be like- dammit if I were as thin as her... Of course logically I know that has nothing to do with it. I'm just pointing out that I know a lot of girls including myself tend to put more emphasis on that part of ourselves when other people/guys might not even be thinking about it.

Of course there are legitimate examples where guys do tend to go more for a certain body type but I think we blow it out of proportion for ourselves.

 

[yolland]

thanks sean

I think I've more or less exhausted what I have to say on this subject, but I'm still enjoying reading everyone's responses...this has been a really good discussion.

 

[maycocksean]

I think Jessica Simpson is really ugly and scary and evil looking.

.

Amen!!!

I'm not making any judgements about her as a person. I just don't find her attractive at all.

 

[Laura M]

It's hard to be a girl. That's all there is to it. For some reason men desire the ideal--and they generally find it. There are seemingly plenty of perfect girls out there. What the rest of us are supposed to do, I have no idea.

Good thread. I wish I was more awake and coherent to comment on so many more posts. I agree that today it's hard to feel your looks/body are right when you are bombarded by images of these perfect models and actresses, avsgirl but how many girls do you really know who are "perfect" and are in a a relationship?

If I think of "perfect" girls I imagine the girls I went to school with - thin, perfect make-up, perfect hair, a wardrobe full of trendy clothes, etc and all those girls are single and spend every weekend out trawling for a boyfriend. They also don't seem very happy, they spend most of their time complaining and being miserable and that is not attractive.

All of us, not only men, search for the ideal. I think, in the end, it's got very little to do with looks or weight which is, sadly, what a lot of people I know equate with finding a partner or being happy. There's a lot of things I could change about my body, I'm far from perfect and I'm not the smartest person around. I have plenty of bad habits, too.

As digsy picked up on, these girls had this conversation not because of girls in a magazine but because of that girl in the corner that can make us feel threatened. We can spend too long worrying about what other people. The grass is always greener.

I know there are five people (even though they might tell me I talk too much and can change the subject three times without taking a breath and bore them by dragging them out shopping and telling them all about what's in fashion right now) who would really miss me if something happened to me. Despite all my faults, if anyone was to ask my family or boyfriend about me they'd say I was perfect. They encouarge me to be optimistic and while I might say my geography is woeful and I am a wuss when it comes to flying they remind me that I can speak other languages and have lived and worked abroad for a year. I think having people like that around you can be wonderful. They are the people who matter the most to me. I just want to keep healthy, there's already too much illness in my family, and do the things that I love doing. If I spent my time worrying and being negative about my looks or how certain things haven't gone right for me, I'd never want to leave the house.

I am not saying that everyone who has issues with their body image can just change their attitude, sometimes it's a lot more than that but in a lot of cases I think it has a lot to do with being positive and focusing on what you can do and can change.

 

[indra]

One more point... I sometimes think that when it comes to physical attraction to the opposite sex (don't know about the same sex), girls are much more attracted to face while guys are much more attracted to body. If a guy has a perfect body but an average face and another guy has what I view to be a very attractive face (nice smile, eyes, nose, mouth, all of it...and hair too) and an average (or even less than average) body, I'd pick the second guy every time. My guess is that most guys, unless a girl is truly "busted," would pick a nice body and average face over a pretty face and average body. But that's just my theory. Anyone care to disprove it?

A couple of years ago I met my favourite singer (the guy in my avatar) after a gig. We were talking about his artwork (he'd recently begun painting and selling his work and we had corresponded quite a bit about that online) and he was trying to explain why he was so interested in portraiture. Suddenly he brightened and said "you know it's like when you watch porno. You don't want to just see bodies, you want to see the faces."

I couldn't help but laugh, but when I thought about it more, well, I had to agree with him.

So does that qualify him as a "face" guy?

I find that most of these retouched and glammed up examples of "beauty" remove all the personality from the model, and that's more than half of what makes a woman sexy IMHO.

How many men really feel that way, and if they do why don't they openly express it?

After all, they're not buying Playboy for the personalities

The same guy as above had a very long flight earlier this year and was subjected to several "reality" tv programs (one of those "I wanna be a model" shows and The Apprentice were among the shows). This experience produced a very long (and often very funny) rant about several subjects including what makes an attractive woman. Here are some excerpts (he tends to go off on tangents so I'm just keeping the stuff that's actually on this subject):

theres this one show comes on
oh god it reviles me..
consisting of a "panel of fashion experts"
and a bunch of silly women
desperate to be models or actresses or just anything
...as long as it involved being famous for half a second
these unfortunate imbeciles are given 4 minutes
chucked into a room full of clothes n makeup
(how sk fucking LOATHES makeup!!)
and then one by one
they strut their sad desperate stuff in fronta the ex-spurts
....
judging these poor fools who so wanna desperately be judged
i feel so sorry for em
....
aint anyone out there opposing this ....
people, yer beautiful as you are
you dont need this crap
god i was fuming in my aisle seat
....
i dont want my daughters to think they gotta be
sexy or sleazy
i just want them to be who they wanna be
....
i tell ya people
be yerselves
find yer own beauty inner and outer
and ladies
believe me
i'm a man
i know a lotta other men
we dinnae like loads of make up or emaciated women
we dinnae care about paris fashion catwalks versace bullshit
we like happy healthy women who think fer themselves
ITS THE TRUTH

i dunno
who have i upset today?
probably someone right now
burning their copy of my records
are we really gonna let the world turn into this?
is that all we are, us humans
flat abs, tit implanted botoxed madeup success seeking travesties
chasing some luxury condo
with wall to wall tv screens n and a microwaved sausage?

count me out then fiendss
i like my people au naturelle
happy, healthy and in tune with the spirit

I suspect having five daughters -- two of them teenagers -- has a bit to do with his reaction. We talked a couple of months ago and he said he was disturbed by the pressure on girls to always be pretty to be perceived as valuable. I hope for their sakes that having parents who don't buy in to the current "standard" of beauty helps them avoid getting a destructive self image.

 

[digsy]

... for ignoring women because they don't look like something out of FHM or Maxim (and/or insulting them because they don't), for objectifying women and for valuing them only for their looks....

It's not the importance of physical attractiveness that is the issue, it's the prioritizing of physical attractiveness and the limiting of it to such standards that most women can never recreate in the real world. I'm not saying all or most men do that, but many do.

i got to say, thats the one part i disagree with... i don't think that many men do this, i really don't.

yeah sure, there's always going to be the 1 in 1000 gorgeous guy who has so many woman throwing themselves at him that he can take his pick and probably would pick the thinniest/prettiest etc etc, but i wouldn't be surprised if the 1 in 1000 gorgeous woman did the same. i don't think its a male thing that people do this, it's purely just an arrogance thing that comes with both sexes vainly thinking themselves exceptionally attractive.

obviously thats a complete generalisation - just because someone is good looking doesn't make them an automatic bastard/bitch.
i'm just saying that the kind of guy who is guilty of "prioritizing of physical attractiveness and the limiting of it to such standards that most women can never recreate in the real world" isn't the kind of guy that normal, pretty or otherwise women would want to be within 100ft of anyway, and he's likely to only find himself surrounded by women with the same ridiculous standards. no one elses loss if you ask me.

maycocksean put it nicely with this:

I optimistically believe that every woman is or will be the Most Beautiful Girl In the World to some man at some point in their lives. And vice versa.

i really think your average nice guy is going to love adore and find attractive an average nice girl. yeah he might drool at maxim but i don't think that means he's incapable of find a normal woman attractive too.

isn't there that whole thing about how women worry about what men think when they see them naked - is my bum big, are my thighs dimply, does my stomach wobble, did i get a bikini wax - when really all men are thinking is "wooh, she's naked!!!"
they really don't give a shit about the details

 

[the soul waits]

i got to say, thats the one part i disagree with... i don't think that many men do this, i really don't.

yeah sure, there's always going to be the 1 in 1000 gorgeous guy who has so many woman throwing themselves at him that he can take his pick and probably would pick the thinniest/prettiest etc etc, but i wouldn't be surprised if the 1 in 1000 gorgeous woman did the same. i don't think its a male thing that people do this, it's purely just an arrogance thing that comes with both sexes vainly thinking themselves exceptionally attractive.

obviously thats a complete generalisation - just because someone is good looking doesn't make them an automatic bastard/bitch.
i'm just saying that the kind of guy who is guilty of "prioritizing of physical attractiveness and the limiting of it to such standards that most women can never recreate in the real world" isn't the kind of guy that normal, pretty or otherwise women would want to be within 100ft of anyway, and he's likely to only find himself surrounded by women with the same ridiculous standards. no one elses loss if you ask me.

maycocksean put it nicely with this:



i really think your average nice guy is going to love adore and find attractive an average nice girl. yeah he might drool at maxim but i don't think that means he's incapable of find a normal woman attractive too.

isn't there that whole thing about how women worry about what men think when they see them naked - is my bum big, are my thighs dimply, does my stomach wobble, did i get a bikini wax - when really all men are thinking is "wooh, she's naked!!!"
they really don't give a shit about the details

excellent post, disgy

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Well it isn't the kind of guy I want to be around, and I never said it was- but I stand by my opinion that most women internalize it (when they feel rejected and ignored by the opposite sex), whereas most men in general externalize it. Whether that's socialization, hiding real emotions, bigger egos-whatever the reasons are.

I just have to wonder, if we took a survey of men-all types, all ages, all shapes and sizes-how many would choose someone from Maxim, FHM, etc for a date (I'm not talking about a long term relationship) vs how many would choose an average looking or even better what society considers an unattractive woman. It tends to be an ego issue for men (I don't see how anyone can honestly deny that it's an ego issue for a man to "get" a good/great looking woman, and that that is the reason that many of them will only pursue that), and I still do believe as a generalization that physical attractiveness in the opposite sex is more important for them than it is for women. Of course we could take the same survey of women. Maybe if we threw in a variable such as-the great looking woman has an awful personality and she's just not a nice person while the other woman is the complete opposite- same for the man. You know that going in, it's not something that reveals itself during the date.

I know that I would choose the average/"unattractive" guy over the great looking jerk, even for the one off date. I have seen too many guys put up with (and completely overlook the fact that she is) a very nasty woman because they're hot for her and her looks to ever believe that is a myth. Of course there are women who will put up with a guy for the same reason or other reasons, I'm not saying it's limited to men and I never would.

 

[AvsGirl41]

Good thread. I wish I was more awake and coherent to comment on so many more posts. I agree that today it's hard to feel your looks/body are right when you are bombarded by images of these perfect models and actresses, avsgirl but how many girls do you really know who are "perfect" and are in a a relationship?

Actually, just about every one of them I run into. I work in a college office so I have to encounter hundreds of freshmen a day. Without a doubt, 50% of them are thin, blond and perfect--and are accompanied by some Brad Pitt lookalike.

Anytime I have gone out, no guy will approach me because there's plenty of pieces of blond perfection lined up at the bar for him to talk to. Or if he did show an interest, he drops me and goes for one of them instead. Same with all my jobs and classes. No matter how long I've gotten along with a guy, he'll go for the first thin blonde who wanders by.

Average girls seem to be more and more in the minority. Maybe they are all able to afford plastic surgery these days. But no guy in my age group will pick my Slavic looks and short legs over a beanpole FHM model.

Maybe it's just that some girls are luckier than others and have that special something. Who knows? I just don't buy the confidence theory anymore. Honestly, the more confident I am the less attractive I seem to be to men.

 

[redkat]

Originally posted by digsy [/i

isn't there that whole thing about how women worry about what men think when they see them naked - is my bum big, are my thighs dimply, does my stomach wobble, did i get a bikini wax - when really all men are thinking is "wooh, she's naked!!!"
they really don't give a shit about the details [/B]

wow I hope that's true

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

excellent post, disgy

I second that!


(Had a good laugh at the "wooo, she's naked!" part, hehe. )

I think when it comes down to it we're all just too damn hard on ourselves for not living up to whatever standard we set in our mind as being ideal. I know I'm very guilty of that, but in the last few years I have been better, or so I like to think, about thinking about the way I look and how what I feel is projected when I venture out into the world. I'm not always successful, but when I have a "hot" day, watch out!

 

[fly so high!]

Why is this, I wonder? Is that just the way the industry is? Or do all woman musicians just "happen" to be very attractive? perhaps the industry as a whole is male-dominated, thus these standards set.

It's simply because "ordinary" does not sell.
But that's OK.....having an entourage of make-up artists,hairdressers and stylists following you around and making you look pretty for the new video so the silly little people will buy your record can be a good thing for your bank account.......unfortunately this is the reality.

PS: I was told i looked tired today...........I was'nt..........I just could not be bothered to wear makeup!

 

[maycocksean]

wow I hope that's true

It is, I promise you.

 

[maycocksean]

I just have to wonder, if we took a survey of men-all types, all ages, all shapes and sizes-how many would choose someone from Maxim, FHM, etc for a date (I'm not talking about a long term relationship) vs how many would choose an average looking or even better what society considers an unattractive woman. It tends to be an ego issue for men (I don't see how anyone can honestly deny that it's an ego issue for a man to "get" a good/great looking woman, and that that is the reason that many of them will only pursue that), and I still do believe as a generalization that physical attractiveness in the opposite sex is more important for them than it is for women.

I believe it as well. It's what I've been saying all along. I'm not trying to step on your toes, Mrs. S. You know I respect you deeply, and so I hope you won't misunderstand what I'm sayig or take offense. But it seems to me that you want physical attractiveness not to be as important to men as it is. You want us to be more like women (for whom looks is less of an issue). And I just think that's a losing battle. Of course a man will initially choose an attractive woman over an average or less attractive woman. Physical attractiveness is a big deal to us. However, our standards for beauty are nowhere near the impossibly high standard set by the media. And while a guy may not "pick" a "less attractive" woman that doesn't mean that he won't that through the course of the natural interactions of normal life, he wouldn't come to find her gorgeous, even he didn't feel that way at first. I mean let's face it, how often do guys really have the opportunity to pick from a bevy of women anyway. In real life, relationships--healthy ones, anyway, develop organically out of the interactions that make up our lives.

I guess I disagree with what I understand to be your premise: that it is wrong for men to highly value attractiveness in a woman.

I do not think that most men value beauty to the exclusion of all else. In fact, beauty is often a function of personality. I've seen more than one woman who I initially thought was really gorgous, "ugly up" quickly as I got to know her and found she wasn't such a nice person. Vice versa, women I may not have looked at twice at first, grow more and more beautiful as I get to know them and find out what amazing people they are.

Of course we could take the same survey of women. Maybe if we threw in a variable such as-the great looking woman has an awful personality and she's just not a nice person while the other woman is the complete opposite- same for the man. You know that going in, it's not something that reveals itself during the date.

And how often do we know what a person's like going in? I know guys tend to think: "Oh, she's pretty. I bet she's also really smart and funny and kind too." We'd like to believe that--the "Natalie Portman" fantasy I call it--but it certainly isn't always true.

 

[dazzlingamy]

:uP: great post maycocksean. i definately agree with what you're saying.

As i've said before, if guy ignores you or is horrible to you becaus eof how you look, you dont want him. Its as simple as that.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I guess I disagree with what I understand to be your premise: that it is wrong for men to highly value attractiveness in a woman.

That's not my premise at all, sorry that it comes across that way. It is wrong for anyone to value attractiveness over all other things and to devalue the other important traits of women in favor of that. I'm not saying all men do that, just that to do that is fundamentally wrong. I want to be valued and appreciated for the other qualities I possess. I am however realistic, I think that most men would initially always choose someone who looks like something out of FHM or Maxim over me. I'm not delusional, or maybe it's just my poor self-esteem. Or a combination of both. And not always just initially-some people in general are so blinded by the physical/sexual/whatever you want to call it that they will delude themselves and/or overlook all other things-I have seen it happen, so it is just my experience.

For example, just from what I know about her on here-I think AvsGirl is intelligent, funny, and interesting. Not to mention I've seen her photos and she's beautiful. She puts herself down and that pisses me off but I don't know why guys aren't swarming all over her. Maybe they're too intimidated by all her great qualities, or maybe they're just f'ed up But she thinks it's because she doesn't fit some standard as she observes, and that's her experience as she described. Sorry, I didn't mean to pick on or embarrass you avsgirl. I think how we view this whole issue is highly influenced by our personal life experiences, and by other personal factors.


Of course you don't want a guy who ignores you because of how you look, but it doesn't make how it can make you feel about yourself any easier to just brush off. Like I said before, the key is to catch yourself in that behavior and to feel good about yourself in spite of that.

With maturity and experience, most men (and women) learn what you said-that beauty does involved so many other factors that make a person more beautiful to you. Maturity perhaps being the key-some men (and women) just don't outgrow it. And some really are just that superficial

 

[digsy]

the fact of the matter is we all appreciate attractiveness.
if you're in a bar and you spot 2 guys/girls across the way - one who looks like a calvin klein cover model, the other who looks like their family has been inbreeding for 4 generations - you're going to elbow your mate in the ribs and point out the hottie. simple as, fact of life. and its NOT a male or female thing but a people thing

the thing is, before we get to meet someone the only thing we've got to go by is what they look like, so its easy and normal i think to react to that.
once we get talking to someone though its a completely different ball game and i think the majority of us, male and female, would walk away from a good looking ass to talk to a normal looking nice person. we learn pretty quickly i think



what i also worry you're in danger of here Mrs S, is flipping the coin completely.

you say its not fair that someone would pick a MAXIM model over you and that you want to be valued for the other qualities you possess too. shouldn't your maxim model be given that chance too? there's this complete generalisation that good looking people are just pretty empty shells and its not fair that the good looking person gets the dates over the nice person, when chances are the looker is a nice person too and are just as deserving of that chance.
They may have a great personality, be funny and intelligent and full of as many great qualities as you and i are, but we're supposed to ignore that and presume they don't have the qualities that "normal" people posses because they're hot?


it would be ignorant, insulting and unfair of us to look at 2 people on the opposite ends of the looks spectrum and presume the uglier one is a nicer person just because they're not good looking.
I've known plenty of normal looking and unattractive people who are complete wankers and i know several good looking guys and girls who are wonderful people - my boyfriend for example, he's gorgeous but that doesn't mean he's not nice, he is in fact wonderful
now imagine if i'd spied him across the crowd and though "ooh, he's hot... bet he's a prick then" and ignored him for it to hit on the uglier guy next to me because he's "probably nicer".
its as equally unfair to do that as it is to do the opposite.

maycock sean hit the nail on the head (again - great posts mate) when he said good looking people with bad personalities ugly up pretty quick and nice people have a beauty that grows with their personality as you get to know it.

and for those who don't learn that lesson and stay with the looks, well then kind sticks to kind - good looking people who will only go out with other good looking people regardless of their personalities will have partners who are just as shallow as them.
once again, its not loss to the rest of us so i don't know why we let it bother us.

completely ignoring looks though i can tell you what is unattractive to men and women alike and that's low self-esteem. so stop looking in the mirror and moaning that you don't look like the model on TV because you're getting yourself into a vicious circle - you think you're unattractive so self-esteem plummets and you become (not just physically) unattractive so you look in the mirror and think yourself unattractive and round and round we go.

do what you want everyone else to do and stop focusing on the physical, this time your own, and find those other qualities you want people to appreciate you for and be proud of them and happy with them and make the best of them and the world will see a different - and far more attractive - person.

 

[Devlin]

Let's face it: women have set this ridiculous standard for women from time immemoriable. And we teach our boys to see these ridiculously skinny, overinflated woemn as attractive, because women will sit there and whine about not having a perfect body, knowing it isn't necessary. I mean, think about it: Adam is a far cry from 'hot' in the sense that Larry is, but who here would say that he isn't stunningly beautiful when he smiles? Not very many.

The question is; why do women feel it's even remotely important to e eye candy? because we've been tault that you have to get a man and have kids in order to be a whole, complete woman.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I'm not presuming anything about the good looking person digsy, and honestly you should really give me more credit than that. I am well aware that good looking doesn't mean one doesn't possess good qualities and isn't a nice person. I've been around this earth more than long enough to know that I am merely saying that, given the choice, the Maxim chick would always win out. As I said, knowing nothing about the person prior and going just on looks-so they would have no idea what either of us are like- my whole premise was based on looks. That doesn't equal me presuming anything about her personality (that was a whole different example I gave of any good looking person who is a jerk). I don't presume things about anyone's other qualities based on looks, I presume after they demonstrate their personalities to me. I don't think that the majority would always walk away from a good looking ass though, it's just been my experience. Some people like assholes too. Guys and women are both guilty of that. It's not just assholes who like assholes either, it can be nice guys and women.

Honestly my self esteem issues really have to do with other things besides models and Maxim, so you can't presume that either.

 

[digsy]

ok fair enough
i'm just saying that the good looking person has just as good a chance as being a nice person as the not so good looking one so why shouldn't they get approached?

and i re-read those last few paragraphs of mine - they came out rather beratingly which they weren't meant to be and i apologise for that. i wasn't presuming anything and i wasn't having a go as it may have seemed. people have low self esteem issues for various reasons and while it looked personal, i was aiming that out at everyone not just you - i just picked it out of your post about thinking a guy is going to go for the maxim model as opposed to you blaming a combination of lack of delusion and low self esteem.

its just like the starter of this thread felt and what you said about avsgirl - its very frustrating when people put themselves down unnecessarily and it can make such a huge difference as to how people perceive each other. confidence and happiness with one self is visible a mile away and is very very attractive in both sexes, while lack of self-esteem and people who dont believe their own worth are a turn off.
its really just digging one's own grave.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

And I'm just saying the good looking person shouldn't automatically get approached over the not so good looking one just because of that, not that the good looking one shouldn't get approached at all I'm hardly that mean..

I don't know, just speaking personally I don't trust people who don't have self esteem issues. I just tend to empathize completely with girls/ women who don't get their deserved attention from men (I'm not saying you don't digsy). I can tell someone like avsgirl how great I think she is until I'm blue in the face, but I also can't put myself in any position of judging why she feels a certain way. I have been there, done that, seen the TV movie. And the movie is always on reruns, it's still not quite over and might not ever really be. It was only coming through all that and discovering things about myself by myself that I really started to feel beautiful-and I want that for all the women and girls that I see for how great they really are.

I don't want to come across as some woman whose self esteem is dependent upon affirmation from men. I don't get that and have rarely gotten it in my life-not in the way that I desire. I don't crave it, I don't need it. I do my best not to seek it. Yes people are people and hurtful things do always happen. If my self esteem was dependent upon it though I probably would have given up a long time ago. But on the other hand I sympathize with "my" girls. Persevering and finding your true worth is a struggle for many women, but it is well worth it. It's one of the best benefits of getting older too, being in your 20's is still a tough time for most women I would imagine.

 

[maycocksean]

That's not my premise at all, sorry that it comes across that way.

No problem. Thanks for clarifying.

It is wrong for anyone to value attractiveness over all other things and to devalue the other important traits of women in favor of that.

I agree.

I think that most men would initially always choose someone who looks like something out of FHM or Maxim over me.

Well, I don't know about that. I mean I don't know you, I don't know what you look like, so whose to say really.

I've been debating whether to say this or not, because I didn't want to come across as weird or creepy, but I'm going to go ahead and let the chips fall where they may because I think it illustrates my point. I know this may sound weird, but I always find myself assuming that all of the women posting at FYM are good looking. I generally don't look at profiles or anything like that, so for most of you, I have no idea what you look like. But in my mind's eye "everyone is beautiful." And you know what, I think it's because you all are. Your posts are intelligent, witty, thought-provoking--in a word, beautiful. It's only natural (though not reasonable) to associate good personalities with good looks. And as I've already pointed out, a great personality can dramatically improve a person's appearance.

And not always just initially-some people in general are so blinded by the physical/sexual/whatever you want to call it that they will delude themselves and/or overlook all other things-I have seen it happen, so it is just my experience.

This is true. But aren't those of us that won't be gracing the covers any magazines anytime soon grateful that such shallow people WON'T be pursuing us. We never have to ask ourselves "does he/she truly like me for me, or is it just my looks" And for those of us with the looks of a model, isn't a bit of pain that we're going to have fend off such superficial people?

I don't know why guys aren't swarming all over her. Maybe they're too intimidated by all her great qualities, or maybe they're just f'ed up

I'll concede also that there are some guys that are intimidated by a strong woman, and perhaps even more so by a strong beautiful woman. Those insecure men lose out and the strong woman wins because hopefully such fellows will weed themselves out of her life.

I am merely saying that, given the choice, the Maxim chick would always win out.

Only initially. But in the long run (except in the case of truly superficial people), personality will win the day.

 

[Irvine511]

*starts to wonder how many women in FYM are sighing and thinking that maycocksean's wife is the luckiest woman alive*

 

[AliEnvy]

Haha well something tells me she's both strong and beautiful and that he would say HE is the lucky one.

This discussion has been so interesting to follow.

Mrs. S, your comment about the Maxim chick always winning out jumped out at me - mostly because I guess I want to know in what context. What does winning out mean - being approached in a bar? Getting checked out at the grocery store? Getting a boyfriend/husband? Being selected from a pile of photos - for what - quality alone time with the photo or a conversation with the person in the photo...you get my general drift.

I could be way off base, but I don't think guys (and women) use the same criteria for a quick pick up in bar as they would when they are seeking genuine companionship...so while the criteria may still be initially physical, the "winning" quality might be as simple as a friendly smile.

 

[Laura M]

Actually, just about every one of them I run into. I work in a college office so I have to encounter hundreds of freshmen a day. Without a doubt, 50% of them are thin, blond and perfect--and are accompanied by some Brad Pitt lookalike.

Anytime I have gone out, no guy will approach me because there's plenty of pieces of blond perfection lined up at the bar for him to talk to. Or if he did show an interest, he drops me and goes for one of them instead. Same with all my jobs and classes. No matter how long I've gotten along with a guy, he'll go for the first thin blonde who wanders by.

Average girls seem to be more and more in the minority. Maybe they are all able to afford plastic surgery these days. But no guy in my age group will pick my Slavic looks and short legs over a beanpole FHM model.

Maybe it's just that some girls are luckier than others and have that special something. Who knows? I just don't buy the confidence theory anymore. Honestly, the more confident I am the less attractive I seem to be to men.

Nobody is perfect. I do believe confidence has a part to play. I wouldn't want to go out with someone who believed I'd dump him for the first Brad Pitt lookalike who ran by. I want someone to have confidence in me and themselves.

Men might go after the blondes in the bars but how many of them actually get into a (long-term) relationship? Here people don't really go out to clubs to find a girlfriend or relationship as far as I know. Girls like oogling at the pretty boy on the dance floor and the blokes like chatting up a group of girls tottering around but it never goes further than a bit of a laugh.

Looks are important, of course but they aren't the be all and end all. I'm not lucky or have a special something. I know I am average. I am not thin by any stretch of the imagination, I'm pale, I have short legs, I don't have supermodel hair or trendy clothes but I am with someone who would say that I was the most perfect person on the planet. Not every guy goes after the "blonde piece of perfection" or else I'd really be snookered.

I really think you're a very pretty and intelligent person, avsgirl. Its sad to see people so hard on themselves.

 

[maycocksean]

Haha well something tells me she's both strong and beautiful and that he would say HE is the lucky one.

Yup!

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

*starts to wonder how many women in FYM are sighing and thinking that maycocksean's wife is the luckiest woman alive*

Yeah and well I just don't know or meet that many men who are like him. I don't mean to slam men, but I just don't and haven't over my lifetime. He is demonstrative and completely open about his fantastic way of thinking (at the very least that's how it comes across on here) and that is so very refreshing and appealing- whereas so many men, well to be kind it's like trying to pull a camel through the eye of a needle. And then of course there are just the a holes. Honestly I am just tired of both scenarios. Avoidance is my new black, but that's really nothing new. I have other issues too.

I am merely talking about initial impressions when I talk about the "Maxim chick", being checked out, whatever you want to call it-not any sort of long term or meaningful thing. I'm not hideous or anything (maybe to some people I am, who knows-beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I for one find many different types of men and women attractive, sometimes it can be "odd and quirky"), there are some things I like about the way I look. But I am realistic about men given the way that view has been colored by my experiences and observations. I guess that "realism" is jaded and can be unfair, but that's the honest way I feel based upon my experiences and observations-I can't pretend. The absence of certain things is an affirmation, if you know what I mean. No behavior can be just as affirming as negative behavior. Not to mention that when you start to reach certain ages, you feel even more invisible. But the best part of all of it is that having certain experiences makes you more assertive and more aware of what you start to think you deserve. I am a much stronger person now than I ever was when I was younger, but that little voice always creeps in-honestly usually daily. You just have to be aware of it and do your best to deal with it.

 

[BonosSaint]

First of all, I'd be delighted to have someone like maycocksean in my stocking for Christmas.

I think a woman's sense of her own attractiveness and validity usually comes quite young. If that is messed with, it is a hard thing to recover. On the flip side, if a young girl is sexual prey, she may grow up fearing or downplaying her own beauty, not valuing it. For both, it might take healthy male attention to begin recovering her sense of of self and power, both sexually and romantically.

We all notice when we are being invalidated. Parents invalidate, so do bosses, acquaintances, spouses, strangers. It is the reason we hate going through a hundred phone prompts to reach a person, being ignored deliberately or neglectfully by an inattentive waiter, having your coworker being given credit for the work you did. We all suffer invalidations every day.

The need for sexual validation is primal in most people. And this is, I think exactly, what most of the discontent is saying. Both sexes experience it. The invalidation you feel when somebody of the opposite sex (or same sex, if you are gay) looks right through you, not acknowledging your presence as if you are not there.
Very few people's confidence can withstand that time and time again. You either shut down or develop other defenses--the wise cracking best friend of the star syndrome or something entirely different.

None of that means you lack confidence in other areas--although sadly enough, validating or invalidating people based on their appearance creeps into too many areas where it shouldn't be relevant. I think that burdens women more than it burdens men.

For all of the nice sounding "you have to confident" advice I saw here, confidence is fed by positive feedback in whatever area. If you need positive feedback every waking second, you're delusional. Nobody gets that. If you need it just enough, you are being normal. And everybody requires a minimum daily requirement of positive feedback to feel confident.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]