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Old 10-17-2006, 01:24 PM   #31
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Well I don't care how hot a guy is, if he's dumb or a jerk he's not attractive in my eyes. But I was referring to the impression that it is still considered far more important (in terms of attractiveness) for a woman to be good looking rather than smart or having a great personality.
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Old 10-17-2006, 01:33 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
Well I don't care how hot a guy is, if he's dumb or a jerk he's not attractive in my eyes. But I was referring to the impression that it is still considered far more important (in terms of attractiveness) for a woman to be good looking rather than smart or having a great personality.


i'm not sure i'd agree there -- i think that it's fair to say that women are under more pressure to look good than men are, and that men are under more pressure to be "successful" than women are.

of course, as a gay man, i get pressure to be both.

so i am fully sympathetic to the unreasonable pressures put on women, as well as to the pressures put on men.
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Old 10-17-2006, 01:38 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

i'm not sure i'd agree there -- i think that it's fair to say that women are under more pressure to look good than men are, and that men are under more pressure to be "successful" than women are.
Well I'd agree with that, I don't see how what I said contradicts that or how we're disagreeing
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Old 10-17-2006, 02:01 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
I have to wonder why some people seem to think that everything is ultimately all about how a woman looks-so in other words a guy can be a mess but if he's "successful" he's attractive to women? But a woman's success (and intellect) means nothing if she's not physically attractive/beautiful? And some people have way too much confidence, baby. That's very unattractive to many people.
It works both ways. I've heard just as many men rightfully complain about how some women expect them to have well-paying jobs (or be on a future path to one) and drive nice cars otherwise they do not get the time of day.

Shallow, insecure people operate at this superficial level - truly smart, confident people of both genders do not.

Truly confident people are also not generally overly arrogant, obnoxious or aggressive.
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Old 10-17-2006, 02:08 PM   #35
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Well I'd agree with that, I don't see how what I said contradicts that or how we're disagreeing


i don't think we're disagreeing, i just think that men and women are under pressure to conform to different, but equally destructive, gender-based expectations.
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Old 10-17-2006, 02:15 PM   #36
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Originally posted by AliEnvy
Shallow, insecure people operate at this superficial level - truly smart, confident people of both genders do not.
I agree completely, but at the end of the day we're still left to contend with the influence of socialization and received messages about ideals, as the original post in this thread underlines. I think most would say in the abstract that of course the size of one's hips or one's paycheck should make no difference in how worthy and appealing you are as a human being--but that doesn't stop most of us from getting hung up to some degree or another on such self-doubts from time to time, nor from having to work at it to unlearn the inclination to feel more approving (or by the same token, envious) towards people who seem closer to the ideal somehow. Very few people have the kind of watertight self-confidence that keeps them from getting preoccupied with these kinds of reproach.
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Old 10-17-2006, 02:20 PM   #37
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i think being successful is a net win for either gender in the attractiveness dept.

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Old 10-17-2006, 02:27 PM   #38
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--but that doesn't stop most of us from getting hung up to some degree or another on such self-doubts from time to time, nor from having to work at it to unlearn the inclination to feel more approving (or by the same token, envious) towards people who seem closer to the ideal somehow.
That's for sure! But I guess there's a big difference in getting hung up from time to time as we all do versus an ongoing, self-destructive obsession with (mis)perceived inadequacies.
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Old 10-17-2006, 03:10 PM   #39
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I just remembered reading this last week

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15160230/

"However complicated body-image issues are for men, it seems they will always be more fraught for women.

“For boys and men, engaging with these media images is more of a choice,” says Deborah Tolman of the Center for Research on Gender and Sexuality in San Francisco. “There’s just not the same requirement for a man in our society to look a particular way. As a man, you can look terrible and still be very well respected.”

As a girl, “you can be the best debater at school,” Tolman says. “But if you’re fat, you don’t get people’s admiration, despite your skill. That’s not true with boys.”


I think that is in line with what I was trying to say, and sadly it is true. I'd say if you're "fat" or not considered pretty/beautiful by the majority and/or by societal standards.
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Old 10-17-2006, 03:52 PM   #40
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Originally posted by Irvine511


doesn't the opposite hold true, too? men can be hot, but if they're dumb/unsuccessful, how attractive are they to women?
in real life, probably not very.

but, and i'm not saying these emulate real life in ANY way, if you've seen shows like 'king of queens' or that one with jim belushi, or even the simpsons, or family guy, or heck, even the flintstones - there are countless examples of the media portraying such couples, where the wife is slim and pretty and the husband is an oafish, unsuccessful lout. if you were to believe what you see on tv, and i'm not saying i do, you would see that it's absolutely unacceptable for a woman to appear average-looking, while it's quite acceptable for a man to not only be average-looking, but downright unattractive.

it's the stuff beer commercials are made of.

and somehow we have to stop ourselves from subconciously internalizing these messages. but how?
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Old 10-17-2006, 04:10 PM   #41
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Originally posted by lmjhitman

in real life, probably not very.

but, and i'm not saying these emulate real life in ANY way, if you've seen shows like 'king of queens' or that one with jim belushi, or even the simpsons, or family guy, or heck, even the flintstones - there are countless examples of the media portraying such couples, where the wife is slim and pretty and the husband is an oafish, unsuccessful lout. if you were to believe what you see on tv, and i'm not saying i do, you would see that it's absolutely unacceptable for a woman to appear average-looking, while it's quite acceptable for a man to not only be average-looking, but downright unattractive.

it's the stuff beer commercials are made of.

and somehow we have to stop ourselves from subconciously internalizing these messages. but how?


very good points -- though i would argue that, in real life, men's success is much, much more important than it appears on these sitcoms.

though it's very true -- straight men are expected to be idiots on TV.
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Old 10-17-2006, 04:41 PM   #42
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The threesome fantasy on Grey's Anatomy comes to mind lol.

Although generally speaking, all the usual and retarded gender stereotypes are abundant in that show.

I love the Dove marketing campaign for real beauty. Buy Dove products

I agree Mrs.S, women are the ones burdened with body image issues, but I wouldn't say that discounts the pressure on men to adhere to a distorted notion of being successful...one aspect of which is either scoring a hottie or marrying a trophy wife. It's a vicious cycle.
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Old 10-17-2006, 06:20 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

think that it's fair to say that women are under more pressure to look good than men are
I disagree. I think men face the same amount of pressure to be good-looking. It's just that the standards for men to be "good looking" aren't nearly as outrageous and hyper-sexualized as they are for women. Plus, it's physically far easier for men to shed weight and get sculpted than it is for women, and it seems many of them are less affected by things like acne. My little brother had some of the worst acne I've ever seen, yet tons of people always asked me if he was single or tell me how hot he is.
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Old 10-17-2006, 06:27 PM   #44
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actually, i disagree with that.

i think, in general, men are able to overcome not being good-looking by being wealthy or powerful or athletic or, ehm, a rockstar, or even just by being funny or sweet.

for women, it's be pretty or go home. no amount of money, power, or charisma makes a woman attractive, to the general population that is.
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Old 10-17-2006, 07:05 PM   #45
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this may sound like a stupid question, but i don't mean it to be...

is there any research about wether or not the same thing happen in the animal kingdom... i.e. being attracted to better looking, more fit, and/or pack leader, king, whatever, etc. type of thing?

i know certain animals will, um, procreate with anything that walks by... but then again, so will some humans...
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