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Old 10-28-2006, 10:37 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally posted by VertigoGal

You can argue forever about who's more likely to get looked over first in a club but really you're not gonna change that (and it's not really guys' fault), and it just doesn't seem all that relevant to me. you don't need to be the hot chick in the club that the guys are looking for a one night stand with in order to find a relationship.
I'm not saying that you need to be that chick in order to find a long term relationship, it was just sort of a random example I used. But how do you find that long term relationship without someone being initially attracted to you and noticing you over a "hotter" woman?

It is SOME guys' fault in my opinion that they have huge egos and seem to think that only a certain physical type is good enough for them. And that they place so much emphasis on that and on looks and sexual attraction and all that. Once again, I'm not saying all guys and that women don't do the same. I'm well aware of all that. Men who are like that are still boys to me (and it spans all age groups), and I want nothing to do with them. But the fact remains that they do exist and you have to coexist with them and live in certain atmospheres that all of that crap creates.

Like I said before, in my experience the ones who aren't like that aren't all that vocal and expressive about it. So in the absence of that, well what is one supposed to suppose?-fair or not. I guess either men in general don't strugggle with these types of issues, or it just makes them far too uncomfortable to discuss it. My hunch is that most do, but for a myriad of reasons they try to cover that all up.

Most women in my experience definitely don't want to be attractive to all men ( of course there are women who have big hangups and who do need that or who don't have much to offer other than great looks, or who just like the ego boost of getting attention from men). They just want the ones they think are special to notice them, and to treat them in a certain way. But it is merely reality that, at a certain point and after having certain experiences, that you begin to feel overlooked and always second best. That's when the journey begins to feel good in spite of all that. It is however much easier on paper than it is in practice.
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Old 10-28-2006, 10:45 AM   #137
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People should be discriminating in their choice of mate and it cuts both ways; we upset it with money and psychology but condemning preference and ego because it makes those who don't make the cut feel bad, thats just weird.
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Old 10-28-2006, 10:49 AM   #138
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In our friendship group of about 10 women, 3 are in long term relationships. All three of us are not thin, gorgeous or the typical beauty but we have men that love us, that would die for us! The others ange for equisitly beautiful (and having to deal with million of men hitting on her) to someone who believes she is very plain jane. And they are all single and looking.
Who has the most to loose being out of relationships? How did these samples develop emotionally and was there a difference because of looks? What are the proportionate looks of the significant others (even though guys have much better leeway on this front).
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Old 10-28-2006, 11:33 AM   #139
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Originally posted by VertigoGal
The hot girl may have higher chances of getting picked up in a bar, but I don't see how that really relates to long term relationships- from what I can see, average people seem to be just as likely to get into a serious, satisfying relationship. If anything, it seems like "beautiful" people are often taken advantage of and used from an early age (teens) before they really develop self worth based on their personality and intelligence. which can fuck you up just as badly.

You can argue forever about who's more likely to get looked over first in a club but really you're not gonna change that (and it's not really guys' fault), and it just doesn't seem all that relevant to me. you don't need to be the hot chick in the club that the guys are looking for a one night stand with in order to find a relationship.

Man, I wish I was as wise as you are when I was your age.

Well said.
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Old 10-28-2006, 11:47 AM   #140
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


I'm not saying that you need to be that chick in order to find a long term relationship, it was just sort of a random example I used. But how do you find that long term relationship without someone being initially attracted to you and noticing you over a "hotter" woman?
I'll tell you how it happend with me. My wife was not the first one I noticed (though she IS gorgeous in my eyes now). I've always been kind of a "fan" of women, if you know what I mean (lest anyone begin to get the impression that I'm too "otherworldly." I'm still a guy after all--the good, the bad, and the ugly). So of course when I walked into my first Intro to Teaching Class I scanned the room for the tables with girls and I chose the one where I saw a particularly good looking girl. I sat down next to her, and started, you know chatting and whatnot. Well, I quickly realized that this girl was crrrrazy and the initial attractiion was rapidly fading. At the same time I began to notice this other woman sitting at our table who I'd not noticed at first, who was funny and smart, and actually pretty cute, I was noticing. I was silently cursing myself for having "chosen" so hastily. Here I was stuck in converstation with no-longer-so-pretty crazy chick and over here was a rapidly-growing-more-beautiful cool girl.

Well eventually, I was able to extricate myself from the first girl and strike up a conversation with Girl # 2. We started talking, walked out of class together, and I found out that her roomate was a good friend of mine and that both of them would be coming to my house that Saturday for lunch (I'd invited the roomate and told her she could "bring a friend.") That Saturday Girl #2 and I talked for 11 hours straight, and we were dating within two weeks. And the rest as they say is history. We've been married 10 years this next July.
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Old 10-28-2006, 11:50 AM   #141
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Originally posted by BonosSaint
First of all, I'd be delighted to have someone like maycocksean in my stocking for Christmas.

You're very kind.

However, you should know that I can still be very much the difficult male. Just ask my wife how annoyed she gets at all the time I spent on Interference.

If I was a better husband, maybe I'd be here a lot less.

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Old 10-28-2006, 12:01 PM   #142
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I never sought perfection.
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Old 10-28-2006, 01:58 PM   #143
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Originally posted by maycocksean


Man, I wish I was as wise as you are when I was your age.

Well said.
thanks.

I don't want to give the impression from my last post that I therefore think all women with self esteem issues are dumb, vain, or missing the point. I'm thin, but I still worry way too much about my weight and what I eat and how my profile looks in the mirror and whether guys in the hall at school will think this shirt makes me look fat, etc. I also just sort of have low self esteem in a lot of areas though I try not to make it obvious when I'm talking to people because no one wants to hear you complain about how ugly you are, it's just not attractive.

And even though I know it's illogical for me to feel the way I do about my appearance, it's not all that simple to change (though I think it's worth working on). I guess my point was that the blame doesn't lie completely with the "guys picking up chicks in the bar" type scenario. It can come from a number of things such as how your mother talks about herself while you're growing up and feedback you get from her, or self-esteem issues caused by things that aren't really related to your appearance/dating situation, but that you sort of carry over to that. So if you already have a poor self image, guys may pick up on that and not be attracted to someone with no confidence; then you might attribute not having a relationship to your appearance when really that's not the root of it, and that just continues the cycle.

It's such a complex thing and I could be wrong but I don't feel like it's as much to do with mens' ridiculous standards as with how we distort them. I hope I don't sound like a hypocrite/dumbass here.
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Old 10-28-2006, 09:56 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


Most women in my experience definitely don't want to be attractive to all men ( of course there are women who have big hangups and who do need that or who don't have much to offer other than great looks, or who just like the ego boost of getting attention from men). They just want the ones they think are special to notice them, and to treat them in a certain way. But it is merely reality that, at a certain point and after having certain experiences, that you begin to feel overlooked and always second best. That's when the journey begins to feel good in spite of all that. It is however much easier on paper than it is in practice.
That's exactly it. When I really think about it, I wouldn't care if everyone else in the world thought I was ugly as long as the guy I liked thought I was beautiful... and the reality is the reason I'm not with him probably has nothing to do with looks, he's had the same girlfriend since before I met him, and she's not "perfect" looking either but it's so easy to beat yourself up and think "well maybe if i were better looking he'd pick me over her" and it doesnt help when it doesnt seem like any other guys are drooling over you either... there's a difference between needing constant validation and just needing validation, period. I think everyone needs the latter at some point.

It seems like every girl ever has self esteem issues stemming from appearence, even the really "perfect" looking ones. Men just don't seem to have the same problems (to such an extent at least, i'm not saying they have none at all), or if they do, they don't show it. Why do girls have these issues so much more than men? All my guy friends (of which I have many) seem so confident, whether single or taken. They just don't beat themselves up over looks, period - not that they should, but that's the thing, the girls shouldn't either, yet they do. And we always compare ourselves to other women, but I've never heard of a guy worried about being fat compared to another guy (less "built" maybe, but not fat). of course I'm only speaking from my own experience.
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Old 10-29-2006, 02:29 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally posted by AtomicBono

Why do girls have these issues so much more than men?
That is the bottom line question, and perhaps many men do but are just less open about it. I might call it emotionally constipated (or just emotionally dead) at any particular point in time when I'm feeling especially frustrated, but I digress..

I'd say it is a combination of the way we are raised and socialized and of societal standards and expectations. And in some ways males can't truly understand it because they just don't live it like we do. Just as we can't understand aspects of them for that reason.

Self esteem issues are definitely not all about looks and/or attention from men-that is just one aspect of it. But when you combine the fact that women in general are still more scrutinized and valued for their looks than men are (that is how I feel and I don't see how that can be realistically denied) with the fact that we are harder on ourselves, with the fact that society behaves as a whole in a certain way about all of it-well, it can certainly present difficulties even for the most self confident woman or girl.
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Old 10-29-2006, 09:15 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
I found out that her roomate was a good friend of mine and that both of them would be coming to my house that Saturday for lunch (I'd invited the roomate and told her she could "bring a friend.") That Saturday Girl #2 and I talked for 11 hours straight, and we were dating within two weeks. And the rest as they say is history.
dinner dates with mutual friend as buffer That's how we met also, or more correctly got to know each other--and it's a good thing too, since we're both quiet, "passive" enough people that it probably wouldn't have happened without an extrovert there to facilitate things, even though the attraction was already there.

---------------------------------------

I don't know that there's a "solution" to the fact that, as BonosSaint put it, sexual validation (through getting "noticed") is a primal need for most of us, and that it can really hurt to go without it for a long while. I don't really understand how anyone with both male and female friends could not notice that people of both sexes experience this, even if men are less forthcoming about it, as they've generally been raised to be. But as I said earlier, I do think it's true that women tend to be socialized to value sexual interest from men above all else where validation is concerned, and that IS unhealthy--men tend to get a little more ego mileage from the respect of their own kind, and IMO, that's a quality worth encouraging in our daughters. There are right ways and wrong ways to go about this though, and I don't see how it helps young women to tell them Well if you haven't gotten a date in awhile, that must be because men are passing you up en masse because they only brake for cover girls. If you actually swallow that, you're going to wind up with a warped and unhealthy view of men, and if you don't, well then you're probably going to wind up beating yourself up over whatever other "deficiency" supposedly explains it instead--you're not funny enough, chatty enough, sweet enough or whatever. I mean, it's fine and healthy to want to look good, make an effort to smile and show enthusiasm when talking to people etc., but not in a context of desperately trying to fashion yourself into some kind of one-size-fits-all, slam-dunk attractiveness package, because there truly isn't one. (Not that men don't make the same mistake; they do, only it's usually less of a one-size-fits-all mistake than a trying-to-pack-too-many-personas-into-your-bag-of-pickup-tricks mistake...in the long run, you're better off learning to just be yourself and come what may, trite though that sounds.)

Also, I do find some of these "A great personality is all that matters to me, that's always so attractive"-type professions to ring a bit hollow. Haven't you ever had a male friend who you genuinely considered a really good guy, kind, smart, nice-looking, the perfect boyfriend for someone maybe...only not you, because for whatever random inscrutable reason, you just weren't attracted to him? I find it hard to believe that there are many women who could honestly answer "No" to that. And there's nothing to be ashamed of in it--that's just reality; attraction doesn't work that way.

Now if you've got a track record of repeatedly choosing people with whom things end in disaster, then maybe you need to be a little more self-critical about why you're making the choices you are...and, ummm, there's a problem I can really relate to from my own pre-marriage dating history, lol. But that's really a very different issue. I think probably the best advice anyone ever gave me about longterm relationships was, "Choose someone whose faults you can live with, and who can live with your faults." And for me at least, learning to think realistically about the *second* part of that took many years. What tended to strike me as "ideal," appealing, sexy, and therefore "right for me" when I was 18 turned out to be, largely, wrong--not in some general sense (the "ideal" qualities I prioritized really WERE good ones, for example) but in the sense that realistically, who I am also imposes certain needs, as well as certain limits, on what kinds of qualities anyone who can "handle" me for long needs to have (or not have, at least not in too great an amount). It may not sound very romantic and perhaps it isn't, but romance isn't everything where things worth holding onto are concerned, necessary though it is.
Quote:
Originally posted by AtomicBono
All my guy friends (of which I have many) seem so confident, whether single or taken.
They're not. Well, unless you have a HIGHLY atypical group of male friends. It's just not "cool" or acceptable for men to show their insecurities in most social situations, unless perhaps it's the wisecrackingly-self-deprecating kind of thing. And it doesn't fit too well with the whole expectation to be The Pursuer with women, either--which is, realistically, still the way things get started most of the time (as evinced by pretty much this entire thread; everything's couched in the metaphor of women passively waiting to be noticed, whether that fully fits anyone's reality or not). Acting confident can have the effect of making you somewhat more confident in reality, kind of like the way smiling more can sometimes make you feel happier--probably because it affects how people respond to you. But this can come at a price.

Most men loosen up a bit about this as they age though (just as most women become a bit less obsessed with their looks). I remember noticing this expectation in myself when I managed a bookstore back in grad school and was training new employees--I found that I became annoyed much more quickly with the few male trainees who openly expressed their uncertainties, wanted me to regularly reassure them they'd done things right etc., whereas with the female trainees, it just seemed like second nature to cheerfully say, "No problem! You're doing great!" without thinking twice about it. It wasn't a happy realization by any means, but there was no mistaking what I was doing--I was expecting the men to project "can-do" confidence at all times and (inwardly) faulting them rather severely for it when they didn't, for no other reason than that they were men. And yet, in the abstract I'd be the first to say men should aim to be appropriately self-critical, reflective enough about themselves to be more "sensitive" to others, etc. It's very easy to be hypocritical about these things.

Anyhow, it's a truism to say this, but I think both sexes could benefit from taking a cue from each other's stereotypical tendencies in this area. Not because it will make you more desirable, but because it will make you more at ease with yourself and others--better able to find a happy medium where you can empathize well with others' problems while still believing in the worth of what you have to offer, "attached" or not.
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