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Old 12-28-2006, 09:10 AM   #16
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


False.
So forced copulation in the animal kingdom for reproduction is also just about power and dominating women then?

People do fucked up things, among them rape, but it is dangerous to ascribe all behaviours to one cause or to exclude a certain cause in certain instances because it is politically incorrect. Cases like this or raping children have nothing to do with reproductive strategy but that doesn't mean that other cases cannot involve sex as a motive.
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Old 12-28-2006, 09:17 AM   #17
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Men aren't animals are they?
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Old 12-28-2006, 09:21 AM   #18
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I thought that we were all animals, we display behaviours which can be motivated by a lot of things - including sex. Thats not an excuse for rape any more than it is for infanticide, most of us have the capacity for self control; but those who don't for whatever reason be it social or biological present the problems.
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Old 12-28-2006, 09:55 AM   #19
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Animals don't have the intellectual and cognitive and emotional ability to even want to have power over, and humiliate, another animal through the use of forced sex. That's why it's called "animal instinct"-it's innate, not a result of any other intent. It is about sex and nothing else.

I would certainly hope it's not the instinct and innate desire of men to want to have power and control over, and humiliate, women (or in this case other men) by raping them.
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Old 12-28-2006, 10:01 AM   #20
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What about other primates? Chimps can be pretty forceful about it and we are practically the same.

Removing sex from the equation entirely seems just as flawed as putting sex as the only reason. The oldest rape prevention strategies seem universally about diminishing the risk from what could only be described as sexual provocation; human societies didn't invent modesty concepts just to supress their women.
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Old 12-28-2006, 10:09 AM   #21
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Well I don't know about chimps, I would still doubt that they can form an actual intent to humiliate and have power over another chimp via rape. I don't know enough about them so who knows?

If it's about sex, well frankly a guy could easily take care of that issue himself. I suppose we could get into technicalities about whether that's exactly the same, but the bottom line is that anyone who has to get sex through force is automatically making it about issues other than sex, in my viewpoint. The desire for sex in most people does not outweigh respect and decency and concern for fellow human beings - at least not to the extent that they would commit rape.

The oldest rape prevention strategies came from sexist views about women and distorted views of what rape is really all about. Views that some people still hold to this day, by the way.
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Old 12-28-2006, 10:14 AM   #22
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I do agree it's about power, and to them sex is part of that. If it were only about sex, they'd only rape and not kill. But orientation probably does have a hand in the victims chosen, male or female. Either way it's a tragedy.
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Old 12-28-2006, 11:07 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
So forced copulation in the animal kingdom for reproduction is also just about power and dominating women then?

People do fucked up things, among them rape, but it is dangerous to ascribe all behaviours to one cause or to exclude a certain cause in certain instances because it is politically incorrect. Cases like this or raping children have nothing to do with reproductive strategy but that doesn't mean that other cases cannot involve sex as a motive.
First of all he said MOST, secondly if you think the psycology of sex is the same with human and animals you are sadly mistaken.
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Old 12-28-2006, 11:14 AM   #24
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Why should we put a big wall up between human beings and other animals, we are animals and are hard wired with behaviours like other animals; the fact that we have conciousness and communication does not undo this, the sex drive in people is not removed from the sex drive in other mammals - hell Dolphins have sex for pleasure and monkeys masturbate - we just get to enjoy the augmentation of being so damn social.

Sex came before psychology; sex has influenced human psychology more than psychology has influenced sex.
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Old 12-28-2006, 11:23 AM   #25
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Originally posted by Butterscotch
to them sex is part of that. If it were only about sex, they'd only rape and not kill.
This is just not true. There's nothing in psychology or criminology to support this.
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Old 12-28-2006, 11:26 AM   #26
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How can you say sex plays no part when it's a big part of the crimes? That makes no sense at all. Doesn't it make sense that forced sex is part of the 'power' they are seeking?
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Old 12-28-2006, 11:39 AM   #27
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If sex played no part, we would see a larger number of reported cases of non-sexual physical torture - e.g. electrical shocks, chopping fingers off, etc. But we rarely hear about such criminal cases (outside of war zones).
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Old 12-28-2006, 12:02 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Butterscotch
How can you say sex plays no part when it's a big part of the crimes? That makes no sense at all. Doesn't it make sense that forced sex is part of the 'power' they are seeking?
Sex is used for power. They don't rape because they want to have sex with X woman. Also, "If it were only about sex, they'd only rape and not kill." was more the part I was referring to. I've never heard that before and was wondering where you got that from. Most serial murders who rape actually get sexual pleasure from the killing, not the sex. Killing is like orgasmic for them. Sometimes they'll have sex after the killing, which again has nothing to do with sexual pleasure, but rather having the last word, giving the body one final desecration under their control. Sex is completely incidental for serial rapists and serial killers. Most of them have severe psychological disorders so they basically have no conscience. They don't not kill because they feel bad and only wanted sex, they don't kill because it leaves the victim to suffer and be vulnerable for the rest of his/her life. They like knowing that it was THEIR power that did this to them and THEIR power that allowed them to live.

Sex DOES play a part, it's just not the motive.
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Old 12-28-2006, 12:04 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Why should we put a big wall up between human beings and other animals, we are animals and are hard wired with behaviours like other animals

Well maybe we should also prey on each other and eat each other, attack each other physically on a regular basis, smell each other's butts , and engage in any and all other behaviors that animals engage in. I think perhaps the goal for most humans is to be "better than animals", that is to say as far as our behaviors towards each other and the fact that we are supposed to have morality and intent and power over our instincts and impulses, etc.. Sad fact is that too many humans don't have that as a goal, and in fact animals are often more loving and kind than many human beings are.

Having sex for pleasure and masturbating is an entirely different discussion than rape is, and to bring that into it is making me nervous. I doubt that your intent is to in any way equate those.

Most men (I say men because the majority of rapes are committed by men) would masturbate for their sex needs before they would ever force someone to have sex - which is rape pure and simple.

You can have power over someone in many ways, but the greatest power, other than taking someone's life, is taking away their right to choose who they have sex with-which for most people is the most intimate act you can have with someone. Other than taking someone's life, how can the greatest power not be to invade their body without their permission and take away their choice and make sex brutal rather than loving and pleasurable and intimate and freely chosen? How is that not about everything else besides the sex act?
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Old 12-28-2006, 12:17 PM   #30
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How many rapists view sex as an intimate act - how many as hard and fast gratitfication of their urges on whatever level.

It's one thing to acknowledge that we behave due to our biology and it's another to justify wrongdoing for that reason. Reflexive dissociation of sex from rape regardless of evidence (for instance rape acheiving pregnancy at around twice the rate of consensual sex) could inhibit successful rape prevention strategies or punishments.
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