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Old 08-21-2003, 02:42 PM   #1
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Separation of Church and State in Alabama

(CNSNews.com) - The man at the center of the Ten Commandments dispute in Alabama remained defiant Thursday in the face of a federal court order to remove a sculpture of the commandments from the state judicial building in Montgomery.

"I have no intention of removing the monument of the Ten Commandments and the moral foundation of our law," said Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Roy Moore at a press conference in the lobby of the judicial building. "To do so would in effect be a disestablishment of the justice system of this state. This I cannot and will not do."

http://www.crosswalk.com/news/religi...y/1214884.html

As of today there will be fines up to $5,000 a day. So what do you guys think?
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Old 08-21-2003, 03:00 PM   #2
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This is going on in my state. I don't like this guy. I think it's political grandstanding in the name of religion, something we've had way too much of. Good grief, we have a economic crisis going on in our state, and they are spending the taxpayers' money on this. I don't know why this guy *has* to have this monument. His freedom of religion is *not* being violated. He's making it out like this is what's happening. No one is telling him what church to go to or not to go to. It's misleading, it's stupid, and he should stop acting like a spoiled child. I'm sorry, I'm fed up with Alabama politics these days, what with right-wingers lying about a courageous Republican governor's tax reform package and such.
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Old 08-21-2003, 03:02 PM   #3
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The rest of the Alabama Supreme Court has overruled the Chief Justice to have the monument removed. There will be no daily fine.

What do I think? I wonder about the people who search the country for displays of the Ten Commandments to seek their removal. Guardians of the First Amendment (which does not call for a "separation of church and State") or an acceptable form of hatred?
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Old 08-21-2003, 03:26 PM   #4
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Quote:
I wonder about the people who search the country for displays of the Ten Commandments to seek their removal.
I think it's not a matter of displaying the 10 commandments, it's a matter of a US court displaying the 10 Commandments. I think you can be a believer in every sence, but still be a supporter of separation of Church and State without it being hatred.
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Old 08-21-2003, 03:34 PM   #5
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And that may be true in many cases, but those who file these cases tend to target specific things, such as displays of the Ten Commandments or Crosses.

These cases go beyond US court houses to any public property. I don't see the Establishment of religion by such passive displays.
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Old 08-21-2003, 03:41 PM   #6
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I guess it depends on which public properties you speak of.
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Old 08-21-2003, 07:07 PM   #7
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I'm reminded of Luke 18 with the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector. The faithfulness of the tax collector is eventually judged by Jesus to be greater than the Pharisee, due to his humility. It is these values that I do not see in Moore and the division that he is purposely inciting to prove that he is "morally correct" are actions that I would expect from a Pharisee, not Jesus.

I almost think that this statue has become more of a "Golden Calf," rather than a monument; the difference between the two being the level of fanaticism accompanying it.

As for nbcrusader's argument, why aren't there monuments to non-Judeo-Christian religions then on public property? Arguments that try and say that our Constitution was based on the Ten Commandments, which Moore has made several times, are purely 19th century romanticism. Our Founding Fathers were generally agnostics and Unitarians. The "Bible Belt" brand of Protestantism in America did not resurge until the 1830s.

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Old 08-21-2003, 07:51 PM   #8
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This argument has been going on for years. I guess it's just my experience with Alabama politics that has me so fed up with this. There are so many problems in this state. It's not a matter of people going around seeing what they can screw up or who they can stomp on next. He had his say in what he could do and the courts have given their ruling. Now this is just grandstanding. He's telling us what a great Christian he is. In this state we've had so many politicians dictating morality and religion it makes me feel like a character in a James Joyce book putting up with the state dictates in the name of the Almighty Church. Joyce was Catholic, we are historically Protestant (I'm a convert to Catholicism as you probably know) and I'm sick of hearing the same old stuff from my state officials. It's almost like they want to get themselves elected some sort of Protestant Pope. I don't mean to show any disrespect to religion (my priest won't like that). I'm fed up with this guy and my state officials in general. They tend to be manipulative idiots.
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Old 08-21-2003, 08:03 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
I almost think that this statue has become more of a "Golden Calf," rather than a monument; the difference between the two being the level of fanaticism accompanying it.
I agree with you hee. No point in elevating the monument over the words on the monument.

Quote:
Originally posted by melon
As for nbcrusader's argument, why aren't there monuments to non-Judeo-Christian religions then on public property? Arguments that try and say that our Constitution was based on the Ten Commandments, which Moore has made several times, are purely 19th century romanticism. Our Founding Fathers were generally agnostics and Unitarians. The "Bible Belt" brand of Protestantism in America did not resurge until the 1830s.
Actually, that was not my argument. I am not asking for the Ten Commandments to be placed public property. I am questioning the motives of those who search out these monuments and file their lawsuits.

As for the Founding Fathers/19th century romanticism point, while I would not argue that the Founding Fathers werer trying to create a Christian society. However, if you read through the Old Testament, many of the basic legal principles of our society are spelled out quite clearly.
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Old 08-21-2003, 08:57 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
As for the Founding Fathers/19th century romanticism point, while I would not argue that the Founding Fathers werer trying to create a Christian society. However, if you read through the Old Testament, many of the basic legal principles of our society are spelled out quite clearly.
These morals are not mutually exclusive to Christianity, nor did they all originate from Christianity. "An eye for an eye," for instance, was less "God's law" in the Old Testament as the Levite authors of the "Mosaic Law" borrowing from the Babylonian "Code of Hammurabi" (c. 1780 B.C.), and using "God" to establish unquestioning authority. Shall we now build a monument to the "Code of Hammurabi"? It probably has far more to do with the creation of civil law than the Ten Commandments.

Secular humanists would certainly disagree that morality is exclusive to religion, and it is my opinion that secular humanism is where our nation's moral foundation was founded on. At the same time, though, I think it has thus been trampled over by religious arguments, some of which runs contrary to secular humanism and rational scientific argument. That, overall, is where I think our country's problems lie.

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Old 08-21-2003, 09:08 PM   #11
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Whatever, this particular guy has no interest in helping our state or our country. If he did he would have used all of this time and energy with our financial crisis, which the Old Guard is actually claiming doesn't exist. It's a whole mind-set with these politicos. They just want to toot their own horns, to hell with the state. I wonder what they'll say when you really can't tell the difference between this state and a third-world country?? That's where we're headed.
Sorry, don't mean to highjack the thread. These idiots just really piss me off. I'm tired of putting up with their and there's no end in sight.
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Old 08-21-2003, 10:40 PM   #12
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Verte,

I am sure you know more about this situation than most of us posting in this thread.
I did take the time to read a few articles concerning this matter.
I don't disagree with your opinions.


This guy used the 10 Commandments in his campaign to get elected to his office.

The other eight Alabama Supreme Court judges all agree that the monument he had placed in the foyer, in the middle of the night, should be moved. I hardly believe the other 8 judges are a bunch of ACLU lefties.

The best I can say about this guy is that he is misguided.
Everything I read suggests he is simply using this to further his political career.
If that is true it is despicable.
Either way he is unfit to be a judge.




A question to the people who support this.

I have heard people say, "If everyone followed the Ten Commandments we would not need any other laws." Does anyone really believe this?
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Old 08-22-2003, 04:23 AM   #13
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IMO, it's a fight over nothing. It's like that situation a few months back where some group decided to sue because a city (Chicago?) had quotations from well-known people on the back of subway tickets and they included a quote from Mother Theresa. I can't imagine what kind of people have the time, the energy of the financial resources to sue about something as ridiculous as this. Exactly how does that have *anything* to do with separation of Church and State?
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Old 08-22-2003, 04:26 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
A question to the people who support this.

I have heard people say, "If everyone followed the Ten Commandments we would not need any other laws." Does anyone really believe this?
No, but how is this relevant to the original subject? We're not discussing the validity of the Ten Commandments, but rather whether it's okay for them to be displayed in a public building.
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Old 08-22-2003, 05:28 AM   #15
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Hello,

Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
No, but how is this relevant to the original subject? We're not discussing the validity of the Ten Commandments, but rather whether it's okay for them to be displayed in a public building.
On the other hand, Moore argues that the Ten Commandments are the moral foundation of the US law. Is that the case? Or is the US law based on more universal principles?

C ya!

Marty
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