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Old 08-22-2003, 10:38 PM   #31
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Not to agree with Moore, but why the strong response?
I'm sorry. I lost it. I think he's insulting Moslems. Moslems believe the Koran is the word of God. I just really don't like the idea of a judge, who's supposed to represent a state, saying exclusive things like this to the press. The guy has Moslem constituents. Apparently he has no respect for them. I didn't like this guy in the first place because I know what kind of politico he is. A bad one. He's costing my state $5,000 a day playing politics with religion. I've lived in this state all of my life and I'm fed up to here with our politics. It's a mind-set with old guard Southern politicians. They're still basically Dixiecrats. I detest Dixiecrat politics. We have a heck of a burden of a political heritage with these politicos.
Not all of our politicians are de facto Dixiecrats but this guy definitely is.
I hope to heck I'm not scaring anyone out of posting. I do have really strong feelings about the dark side of my state and region's politics. I love my state and it makes me mad as hell that it's getting screwed like this. It's embarrassing. This guy is on the news all over every night. Ugh.
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Old 08-23-2003, 10:29 PM   #32
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Originally posted by Leeloo
I don't think it's that big of a deal. 99.9% of the population probably couldn't care less if it's there or not. It's just the extremists on both sides trying to make a show. I can't really believe anyone is so offended by the 10 Commandments they'd have such a fit. Maybe the guy is using it for politics. But I really don't think it's so terrible they'd have to take it down. Maybe some local church group can sponsor it so it won't be 'gov't' controlled anymore.
Leeloo--
I don't want to jump all over you, but I DO want to use this as an example of WHY this upsets so many people: The blase attitude that lots of Christians have that they are "right and, well, there are so many of us and only so few of THEM that what we want, say, think, etc., is what goes."

Those of us who are completely against this monument are NOT extremists, as you put it. THAT is one of the problems with our stringently partisan political culture right now: that anyone who disagrees is either a "bleeding heart radical liberal democrat (aka Pinko Commie)" or a "heartless, money-grubbing, good 'ol boy conservative Republican."

I, and a lot of my friends, would be completely offended by that big block of granite, especially if one of us were being brought into the court on charges of one kind or another. It gives the feeling that anyone different--anyone not an evangelical Christian--won't get a fair trial, won't be understood, and doesn't count.

And yes, a church group SHOULD sponsor it--IN A CHURCH!
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Old 08-23-2003, 10:39 PM   #33
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Originally posted by ABEL


I know I don't post in here very often any more...but I agree, this argument is meaningless....the statue is doing no one any harm...it's not like people are being forced to look at it.....what about "In God We Trust" being written on our money? Are they going to try to remove that next too? It's Government money
Again, the staue is doing harm because what it represents--the supremacy of one religion over all others--has the ability to do harm to the freedom of people in this country. Take away our freedom of religion--especially in a setting in which people are judged--and you have situations in which people will be persecuted for their beliefs.

And it's not about being forced to "look at it." This isn't a Mapplethorpe exhibit in a museum that people go to on purpose and pay to see. This is a ton block of rock sitting smack-dab in the middle of a rotunda in a courthouse. Everyone who goes into that building probably sees it--as a matter of fact, the people holding vigils outside can see it through the windows. It's the fact of its existence in this public buiding. It's existence is even a threat to those who CANNOT see it (the blind, etc.).

Oh, and money. This is sort of like the argument over "under god" in the pledge. 'Under god" was added to the pledge in the 1950s as a direct attack (and as subtle propaganda) on what was considered to be a very real threat--"godless communism." If the kids said "under god" in school everyday, the US would be a safe place. From what I've heard (and sorry, but I cannot find proof of this YET--I'm looking) "In god we trust" was put on money right around the same time, and for the same reason. Unfortunately, while we can go through life not saying certain parts of the pledge, we HAVE to use the money that is the only legal tender in this country. Actually, I expect (I hope) that someone decides that this is next. Really, what in the world does religion have to do with money? It was silly to put it there in the first place.
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Old 08-24-2003, 05:12 AM   #34
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ack! we have two threads going on this now and go debate in both. I posted this in the other one but also wanted to post it here for thought. From CNN.com

Asked on CNN whether he would support an Islamic monument to the Koran in the rotunda of the federal building, Moore replied, "This nation was founded upon the laws of God, not upon the Koran. That's clear in the Declaration (of Independence), so it wouldn't fit history and it wouldn't fit law."
Wow, he realy thinks that killing and robbing the American natives was a act of god`s will,..
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Old 08-24-2003, 09:51 AM   #35
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Wow, he realy thinks that killing and robbing the American natives was a act of god`s will,..
Where did this come from?
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Old 08-24-2003, 11:49 AM   #36
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I put this in the other thread, but I'll put it here, too. This is something you have to understand in the context of Alabama politics and culture. This part of the U.S. is commonly called the "Bible Belt". Religious conservatives run this state, not the elected officials. It's exasperating if you're not a religious and political conservative. This is not an isolated incident. It's tough to be someone who disagrees with these people in this state. So when you've got someone like this, and you personally think the guy is a pompous , naturally you don't want to see him glorified. The good religious people of this state are more low-key and basically mind their own business. They're in the majority, too, but they don't make headlines. It's been said that virtue makes no news. That's depressing but true. Read books about Alabama and Southern politics. For a historical view, read anything by C. Vann Woodward. His books are classics. For a more recent observation of our politics read Diane McWhorter's "Carry Me Home". It's controversial, but excellent, excellent, by a Birmingham native.
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Old 08-24-2003, 01:50 PM   #37
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Where did this come from?
I second that!
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Old 08-25-2003, 01:48 PM   #38
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I find it interesting that no one here has REALLY taken the side of Moore.

This makes me happy.

I think there are some people even more disgraceful than Moore, and those are the supporters of this idiot who are outside the courthouse having vigils etc.

How can these people be tolerated?

In my world they cannot.

Why?

Because they are trying to put their beliefs above others, and rationalize that US law is based on the Ten Commandments, and that due to this, this symbol should be allowed inside a public building, moreover a courthouse.

If I had the money and the means, I would arrive at this courthouse with a truck holding the following:

A large stone sculpture describing the rules of Satanism.

I would drop this on the property of the court, and claim that these rules are the basis for the beliefs of a number of Americans and they apply as much to law as the Ten Commandments do.

Why are some rules better than others?

Who is to tell me what beliefs to have, but moreover ask me to pay for them with my tax dollars.

This is simply the Christian majority in this country trying to use mob tactis to push their beliefs , just like everywhere else.

I ask you this:

When will the Christian majority (or more specifically the CHristian Right) realize that there are numerous other faiths who reside here and the Christian belief system is not worth to them anything more that the paper it is written on.

Ten Commandment statues
Ten Commandment pictures in classrooms
Under God in the Pledge of Allegance
In God we Trust in courtrooms?

My religious beliefs are what they are, but I can seperate them from what I believe is right. These public displays are not right as many in the public do not believe in them SOME do. Even if it is a majority that do, they have no right to force their ideas onto others.



That sculpture should be removed and donated to a church or synagogue in the area, where it belongs.
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Old 08-25-2003, 07:29 PM   #39
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I read this and I want to vomit.

This man should not only be disbarred, but arrested at the same time.

MONTGOMERY, Alabama (CNN) -- Suspended Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore vowed to fight to keep his job and to keep a massive Ten Commandments monument in the state judicial building's rotunda after police barricaded the building's doors Monday.

"I stand before the Court of the Judiciary because I've done my oath. I've kept my oath. I have acknowledged God as the moral foundation of our law," Moore told cheering supporters outside the building Monday afternoon.

Other Moore supporters filed a lawsuit Monday in federal court in Mobile in a last-ditch bid to prevent the carved stone monument from being moved.

They argue that removing the monument would amount to a government endorsement of a "religion of non-theistic beliefs," according to the complaint.

Moore argues that the Ten Commandments are the foundation of the U.S. legal system and that forbidding the acknowledgment of the Judeo-Christian God violates the First Amendment.

"It's not about a monument," he said. "It's not about religion. It's about the acknowledgment of almighty God," he said.

Last week, Moore's colleagues on the Alabama Supreme Court overruled his defiance of a federal court order demanding the 2.6-ton granite monument's removal, and the state's Judicial Inquiry Commission suspended him from office.

Monday afternoon, police put up metal barricades to keep people who have gathered in support of Moore away from the building's glass doors.

"Christians are offended at many things in today's society," Moore told about 150 supporters. "They're offended at abortion, at sodomy in our streets, at kids getting killed in school.

"And yet, we seem to be ashamed at standing up and speaking the truth -- of acknowledging that we are created in the image of God and endowed by him with our rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness," he said.

The Judicial Inquiry Commission charged Moore with six ethics violations for defying a federal court order to remove the monument.

One of Moore's lawyers, former state Supreme Court Justice Terry Butts, said the chief justice's defense team will "actively mount a very vigorous defense of the allegations that have been made against the chief justice."

Commission spokeswoman Margaret Childers said Moore has 30 days to respond.

The state's Court of the Judiciary could decide to punish Moore, and could even remove him from the bench.

Many backers waited outside the building through the weekend, threatening to block efforts to remove the monument.

Patrick Mahoney, director of the Christian Defense Coalition, said one company contacted about removing the monument has refused to do so, and he urged Moore's supporters to boycott any company that took the job.


Alabama faces $5,000 a day fines until the monument is removed.
"Today let it be known that any engineering company or any company that would transport furniture or move heavy materials, if you move this monument, we will call for a nationwide boycott of you," he said.

"We see the First Amendment to protect religious liberty, not crush religious liberty," Mahoney said.

Moore installed the monument in August 2001 without consulting the other justices.

Three Alabama lawyers who often had business at the judicial building sued, and U.S. District Judge Myron Thompson ruled that the monument was an unconstitutional promotion of religion.

Moore appealed the decision, but the U.S. Supreme Court refused to stay Thompson's order demanding the monument's removal by midnight Wednesday.

Moore refused to comply, prompting the state Supreme Court's other justices to overrule him.

With Thompson threatening to impose fines up to $5,000 a day, Moore's colleagues ordered the monument removed "as soon as practicable."
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Old 08-26-2003, 10:10 AM   #40
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Great post ouizy. I agree with everything you say. This guy is a pompous . You know what? I think he likes to be called a pompous !!
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Old 08-26-2003, 11:17 AM   #41
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"Christians are offended at many things in today's society," Moore told about 150 supporters. "They're offended at abortion, at sodomy in our streets, at kids getting killed in school.
I want to know where exactly these people live where they are driving and all of a sudden there's sodomy in the middle of the street? WTF is he talking about? The more and more Moore opens his mouth it sounds like he's a Judge that wants to uphold the law as long as it's laden with his own hatreds and judgements.

And he's right I really believe that all the non Christians in the US don't give a shit about kids getting killed in school. Putting up the Ten Commandments will remind these kids that killing is wrong. What a jackass.

I really started this argument because I strongly support the separation of Church and State. But now it seems more like one man's bent motivations than it does an issue of church and state.
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Old 08-26-2003, 11:29 AM   #42
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Judge Moore really doesn't know why killings are happening in schools. That's my complaint about politicos like him. They simplify things that are very complex and difficult because they can't deal with the difficulty. These problems are only going to be solved by addressing the difficulties. Sure, putting up a statue is going to solve all these problems.
Nonsense. Give me a problem-solver, not some egomaniacal zealot.
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Old 08-26-2003, 07:01 PM   #43
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Uhh...there are non-christians who are offended by kids getting killed in schools. does that mean because they are offended they are automatically christian?

if he wants that frankly somewhat ugly monument on public display, he can pay the state to put it in his front yard.
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Old 08-26-2003, 07:14 PM   #44
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Yeah, it'd be nice if he'd pay us for a change. I think he should quit his job and join some lobby or something. He's in the wrong line of work right now. He shouldn't be a judge.
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Old 08-26-2003, 07:31 PM   #45
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And he's right I really believe that all the non Christians in the US don't give a shit about kids getting killed in school.
Moore's statement is stupid. The more he opens his mouth, the deeper he is digging.

But how do you draw your conclusion from his statement? Is he really inferring that non-Christians believe something different about kids getting killed in school??
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