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Old 02-18-2004, 11:45 AM   #16
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So because his reasons are religious, and others who stand with him on some issues it is not, it still makes it a religious issue?

I think that is unfair of the other side to say it IS a religious issue. It pretty much says that anyone who stands with the President believes in the same thing.

Sting and I both supported the war, but if you look at the debates we have had, we do not agree on the hows and whys.

I think it is EXTREMLY wrong to interpret this as forcing religion on someone else. No one is forcing anyone to "worship" or follow a religion. Their reasons may be founded in their faith for supporting or not supporting a law....but that does not make it a "religious usssue" for EVERYONE.
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Old 02-18-2004, 12:10 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
So because his reasons are religious, and others who stand with him on some issues it is not, it still makes it a religious issue?

Dread, no one has shown me a shred of evidence not based on religion that would ever stand up in court. Who are the "others"?
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Old 02-18-2004, 12:27 PM   #18
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This thread is about the separation of church and state.

I used myself as an example of who the "others" may be.

If I support something that the church supports that automatically makes me supporting a religious issue? I think not.

If I am against something that the church supports that makes me anti-religion? I think not.

Right or wrong, this is not about the imposition of RELIGION on anyone.
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Old 02-18-2004, 12:47 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
This thread is about the separation of church and state.
I know what this thread is about and I was debating your example.



Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox

I used myself as an example of who the "others" may be.

If I support something that the church supports that automatically makes me supporting a religious issue? I think not.

If I am against something that the church supports that makes me anti-religion? I think not.
I completely agree with you here.

The point I'm trying to make is that if an issue ONLY has religion as it's reason, then it's a religous issue and therefore should not be put into legislation.
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Old 02-18-2004, 07:01 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
"no religious references, even by private citizens, on public property".
Again, would you like a large statue of Buddha or the Virgin Mary in front of your courthouse?

Or how about California's "feng shui" bill? You clearly didn't like it.

Again, most people opposed to the current interpretation of "separation of church and state" are very confident in that THEIR BELIEFS will be legislated.

The sheer tendency for religion to be a bastion of insular intolerance is reason enough as to why it has no place in government. We merely do not ALL AGREE on the SAME RELIGION.

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Old 02-18-2004, 07:18 PM   #21
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So the folks who want no religion in the public eye are the tolerant ones???
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Old 02-18-2004, 07:28 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
So the folks who want no religion in the public eye are the tolerant ones???
How about taking a cue from the Gospel of Luke:

"He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else. 'Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, 'O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity--greedy, dishonest, adulterous--or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.' But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, 'O God, be merciful to me a sinner.' I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted." -- Luke 18:9-14

In other words, keeping your faith to yourself is probably more righteous than having to thrust it openly on everyone like a Pharisee. Having a secular government doesn't infringe on your religious beliefs at all; all it does is prevent one from being as arrogantly self-righteous as a Pharisee. Sure, they may have been the "holier-than-thou" of Jesus' era, but look where their rigid faith left them? Blind of the Messiah that they were supposedly searching for; contented, rather, swimming in a sea of laws.

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Old 02-18-2004, 07:40 PM   #23
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Or from Matthew:

"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." Matthew 5:14-16

There is a huge gap between the arrogant self-righteous Pharisee and the individual who expresses their faith in public - why lump them all together? A secular government may not infringe on belief, put it finds no trouble in silencing its practice.
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Old 02-18-2004, 08:05 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
So the folks who want no religion in the public eye are the tolerant ones???
This is different than on public property. I can wear a religious symbol anywhere I want, in the public eye. So can you, so can any person. It's when the particular tenets of a religion are promoted by those acting in an official government capacity that the trouble starts.
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Old 02-18-2004, 10:15 PM   #25
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I agree, but those who want "separation" don't stop with people acting in an official governmental capacity.
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Old 02-18-2004, 11:37 PM   #26
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How?
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Old 02-18-2004, 11:41 PM   #27
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let's not make generalizations now
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Old 02-19-2004, 10:03 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Again, most people opposed to the current interpretation of "separation of church and state" are very confident in that THEIR BELIEFS will be legislated.

That does not change that "separation of church and state" meant something different for 150 years.


The wall of separation was meant to keep governement out of religion and people's lives......not the other way around.
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Old 02-19-2004, 10:52 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha
How?
Just ask the next student who is told they cannot include references to God in their own speeches. Ask the person invited to give an invocation, but told not to use the name Jesus Christ.
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Old 02-19-2004, 10:57 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Ask the person invited to give an invocation, but told not to use the name Jesus Christ.
If it's a speech at a government-sponsored event, there should be no invocation at all.
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