Senator Kerry: Personal beliefs vs. legislation - Page 9 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-10-2004, 03:04 PM   #121
War Child
 
BluberryPoptart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 532
Local Time: 10:34 AM
Another thing, not everyone whose birth control 'fails' gets an abortion, either. I have known several people who laughed it off and welcomed the baby anyway. So considering how rare all those extreme cases are, I do believe most who choose abortion and keep those clinics in business were not careful or responsible with their birth control, or are using it for birth control! Being a woman myself I cannnot condone such action, and certainly have -0 sympathy for anyone but the child.

YES I DO blame the guy too! Guys have an equal part in birth control, if he's going to screw around, keep it under cover or pay for the next 18 years!!

Sorry, but it is a fact that a lot of girls lie to a guy about whether or not they took a pill, so it's not always his fault. I also have seen guys take more responsibilty than girls! I PERSONALLY know 3 cases where the guy found out a girl was in an abortion clinic and rushed to take her out in time to save the child! In all those cases, the girl hadn't even told the guy she was pregnant! It's his child too! Let him be a part of any 'choice.' I also know one guy who took the baby to raise as a single father after the girl said she didn't want it!
__________________

__________________
BluberryPoptart is offline  
Old 07-10-2004, 04:03 PM   #122
Bono's Belly Dancing Friend
 
Mrs. Edge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Torontonian in Maryland
Posts: 2,913
Local Time: 06:34 AM
Before I bow out of this headache and high blood pressure inducing discussion, I wanted to say something as one of those "mistakes" people are talking about, (I am a living product of faulty birth control methods), I know only too well how this tends to happen. Am I glad my parents decided to keep me? OF COURSE! Do I think regular couples and teenagers should take responsibility and deal with consequences? OF COURSE! Where do people get the impression that pro-choicers think that abortion is a method of convenient birth control? I certainly don't!

As I and others here have said over and over, it should only be used in very limited cases as a last resort for rape, incest, and in cases where the health of the mother and/or baby is in danger.

You know, had my mother been some 14 year old living poverty somewhere, with no support system, perhaps even with a drinking/drug problem, and I would have been brought into the world with fetal alcohol syndrome or something and shunted through a foster system only to end up on wellfare....I totally wouldn't have blamed her for aborting me. I would have been a bundle of cells anyway and wouldn't have known the difference!

Sorry Angela but the whole "abstain! keep your knickers on!" thing sounds very puritanical to me...right in there with no sex before marriage and even then only if you are procreating. I realise now in retrospect that you meant that if they couldn't get their birth control together that's what they should do. Idealistic though that is, it's so unrealistic, it's of another age.

BlueberryPoptart is obviously is of the "pro-life but only for babies" view. Really they should change it from pro-life to "anti-abortion" because that's all it is. Obviously if the doctors performing legal abortions in clinics can be shot or bombed at the hands of "pro-lifers" and rah rah to the death penalty, life is only valuable in certain circumstances. I simply cannot argue with that, it's too exhausting.
__________________

__________________
Mrs. Edge is offline  
Old 07-10-2004, 05:18 PM   #123
you are what you is
 
Salome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 22,016
Local Time: 11:34 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Mrs. Edge
As I and others here have said over and over, it should only be used in very limited cases as a last resort for rape, incest, and in cases where the health of the mother and/or baby is in danger.
I think that in the end most people in this thread (not everyone of course) agree with each other
there's just a difference in how this whole subject is looked at (more from the side of the parent or the side of the embryo) and the stats on why most abortions happen

and to think that's not even the actual subject of this thread
__________________
“Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.”
~Frank Zappa
Salome is offline  
Old 07-10-2004, 05:24 PM   #124
War Child
 
BluberryPoptart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 532
Local Time: 10:34 AM
I am not a member of the 'pro life' camp and I do not go to church and do not thump Bibles. I am actually kind of radical in most of my other beliefs but cannot stand what abortion really is or the reasons most people 'choose' it. I believe it should be illegal in all cases but rape, incest and health problems, and then only in the earliest stages. If you were raped, you know it. Don't wait 2 or 3 months to do something!

I don't think the comment about keeping your pants on is 'puritanical.' That should be common sense! It's a perfectly logical thing. If somebody is so damn financially and emotionally unprepared to have a child, and is not using birth control, do not have sex. You are not a dog, have some restraint. I don't think that's too much to ask. Casual sex spreads disease, too. It's wise to be careful, not an unreasonable thing to ask!!

Yes, I think some life is more valuable than others. I am for the death penalty in only the most extreme cases of cruelty and murder most foul. Sorry, a criminal who has brutally hacked up 12 people and dumped them in ditches just for sport, or killed and eaten people and kept the body parts in his house, or kidnapped, tortured and killed an 8 year old child, etc., does NOT deserve to go on living, because he took that away from his victims. There is NO WAY his life can be compared to a helpless innocent baby who hasn't even been born yet!
__________________
BluberryPoptart is offline  
Old 07-10-2004, 06:37 PM   #125
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 19,271
Local Time: 04:34 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Angela, can I just double check, you think a late term abortion at 6/7/8 months is a mother's choice if there are no percieved health risks but she just 'changes her mind'?
I can't see how this can even be debated once the pregnancy has passed viability.
No. I said that I think the choice should remain at 6, 7, 8 months because of circumstances that could wind up warranting it, such as health problems or something along that line. I already said very early on in this thread that I personally agree that making the choice to have an abortion for "change of mind" reasons or something along that line should be done very early on in the pregnancy. But if health problems arise late in the pregnancy or something, and the woman wants to have an abortion, that option should be available to her. That's how I personally see it.

Quote:
Originally posted by U2girl
I did forget to add that maybe instead of judging/blaming/critisizing/singling out (it takes two to get pregnant) etc... the woman maybe it'd be nice to show compassion and offer support to her in those no doubt hard times she's going through.
. Thank you. Seriously, people, what good is yelling at her going to do? I agree with U2girl-I really believe most women are not that cold-hearted when making this decision. The few women you may know who have abortions for what you see as dumb reasons, who may not have done much soul-searching when making a decision like this, does not equate to a majority of the women out there who've made this decision. I highly doubt most women who have abortions out there are all, "Yes, now I get to get rid of this horrid thing!".

to everything else you've said, U2girl. Same with Fizz and Mrs. Edge.

Angela
__________________
Moonlit_Angel is offline  
Old 07-10-2004, 06:44 PM   #126
The Fly
 
Wild Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 188
Local Time: 05:34 AM
One thing that has been left out of this is that new morning after pill which is essentially the same as a demating shot for dogs. Since that is available, there should be no need for any surgical abortions for reasons of rape, incest, broken condom, or forgotten pill. If one of those happens, go get one. Don't bitch about the cost, it has to be cheaper than an abortion! So there go all those excuses!
__________________
Wild Angel is offline  
Old 07-10-2004, 06:45 PM   #127
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,297
Local Time: 05:34 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BluberryPoptart
Yes, I think some life is more valuable than others.
I think it's an incredibly frightening and dangerous proposition to suggest that some people are more equal than others, that some lives are more valuable than others.

Where does this end? And who gets to decide?

Needless to say, I completely disagree with the notion.
__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 07-10-2004, 07:38 PM   #128
War Child
 
BluberryPoptart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 532
Local Time: 10:34 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


I think it's an incredibly frightening and dangerous proposition to suggest that some people are more equal than others, that some lives are more valuable than others.

Where does this end? And who gets to decide?

First, if you hadn't have deleted the rest of my post, you'd see what I mean. Those who have viciously deprived others of life through intentional, brutal murder do not deserve to live out the rest of their lives, their food and housing being a burden to taxpayers, after they deprived their victims of their lives.

Now please, don't start with all the worst case scenario hypothetical situation bullshit over where does it end. I already explained that. Who decides? The law. We do have to have laws, or there would be anarchy.

Quote:
Needless to say, I completely disagree with the notion.
Do you now? No, you don't. You have already decided that the life of the unborn baby is worth nothing.
__________________
BluberryPoptart is offline  
Old 07-10-2004, 08:08 PM   #129
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,297
Local Time: 05:34 AM
Please find on this thread where I have said that. Quote it.

As for the rest, I generally don't make it a habit to reply to posts which label other posts and/or opinions as bullshit, so I'll let it pass. I can now see why so many people are abandoning this thread, it's like hitting your head against the wall repeatedly.

I'm joining Mrs. Edge and U2girl and many of the others outta here. Totally not worth it to sink to these levels.
__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 07-10-2004, 08:16 PM   #130
War Child
 
BluberryPoptart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 532
Local Time: 10:34 AM
You didn't say it in so many words, but every one of your posts defends abortion. Sure looks that way to me.

I am tired of the reaches of 'what if this' and 'what if that' that are like one in a million or more chances of ever happening as a defense for the whole thing, it's ridiculous. That's what I mean by all the hypothetical bullshit, several people have done ti. it wasn't only your last post!
__________________
BluberryPoptart is offline  
Old 07-10-2004, 09:02 PM   #131
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 05:34 AM
I find it all the more ironic that those who advocate the state-sponsored murder of criminals are the ones who cry "pro-life" the loudest. It's the worst kind of hypocrisy, because you're supposed to be the one setting the example.

Needless to say, this entire discussion merely reconfirms my belief that religion is merely politics wrapped in mythic speech. At least in the secular world, debate and change are welcomed; but dare question the politics of religion? You either get inarguable metanarratives or get condemned to hell.

I'm honestly ambivalent to the whole abortion debate, merely because it doesn't affect me. I don't see the GOP pushing to do anything really "pro-family," aside from carefully calculated political moves designed to beat upon unpopular sexual minorities. I'd like to see some real "pro-family" moves by, for one, not forcing welfare mothers with young children to work minimum wage jobs. Leaving their children at home alone is not "pro-family." Or how about encouraging day care programs, not too dissimilar to how the Scandinavian countries do it? After all, ask STING2...they're above the U.S. in the UN "Standard of Living" hierarchy. Least of all, aside from government intervention, conservative Christianity could be more welcoming to women who have children out of wedlock, rather than fostering a highly judgmental environment that all but encourages having abortions to avoid the stones they cast. Trust me...I went to a Catholic high school. The difference between a Catholic high school and a public high school is that the public school girls are more likely to carry the teen pregnancies to term. I knew seven girls in my HS who had an abortion, and, frankly, while I wouldn't condone it ever, I can see why they had them. The few girls who kept their babies were the object of ridicule.

But really...nothing will be solved in this thread. The only people who think Kerry is a hypocrite are those who would never have voted for him in the first place. I most certainly understand where his difference is coming from; being a secular humanist in the political realm, while having a moral objection to it in the private world. It's much the precedent that JFK set when, in 1960, most people were afraid that, as a Catholic, he'd merely follow what the Pope said, putting his country secondary. And if it weren't for JFK's actions, Catholicism would still be a pariah in this mostly Protestant nation.

Honestly, who needs to ban abortion? If you fostered a supportive environment conducive to having children, then you might have fewer abortions or even none at all. After all, the law doesn't require women to have abortions, and if they didn't have them, the law would be meaningless.

But whatever...believe what you want. This thread will solve nothing anyway. But do know that you can scream all you want; being anti-abortion and pro-death penalty makes you a hypocrite of the highest order.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 07-10-2004, 09:38 PM   #132
War Child
 
BluberryPoptart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 532
Local Time: 10:34 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon
I find it all the more ironic that those who advocate the state-sponsored murder of criminals are the ones who cry "pro-life" the loudest. It's the worst kind of hypocrisy, because you're supposed to be the one setting the example.
WHY do you keep screaming that people are screaming pro life???!! Who? Where?? The only person in this thread who has proclaimed to be pro life is also anti death penalty. I am not pro life. I am against abortion. As I said before, I am not a Bible thumper. My other views on things would be considered radical by many. I just can't stand to see innocent lives wasted because of what amounts to stupidity, apathy and irresponsiblity on the parts of many women (and the men they screwed)



Quote:
being anti-abortion and pro-death penalty makes you a hypocrite of the highest order.

Melon
Why?? If you mean the people who use the thing that all life should be preserved as a backing for thir position,that is not me. I never said everyone deserved to live, only innocent people who have never killed anyone. I believe some criminals are so vile they are not worth the taxpayer's money to feed them, but as I have said, only in the most extreme cases of brutality. I also believe that people in their right mind should be able to choose assisted suicide! What is the difference here? Let's see...

the person choosing suicide is choosing for THEMSELF, no one else, not another person, not a baby

the criminal who got the death penalty chose death FOR SOMEONE ELSE, therefore, he no longer deserves his own life

the baby in an abortion just had the unfortunate luck to be in the belly of the wrong person at the wrong time, making them much more in the category with the murder victim than the murderer

Speaking of hypocritical, why do you defend the mass murderer but think it's okay to kill babies???
__________________
BluberryPoptart is offline  
Old 07-10-2004, 09:56 PM   #133
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 05:34 AM
Thanks for the clarification. I'm glad you don't use the "pro-life" title. It's kind of an ideologically loaded term anyway. Like I've said, my views on abortion tend to be kind of "muddled," merely because I will never have to deal with it.

In terms of the death penalty, I tend to argue against it, due to the precedent it sets--that is, it is not okay for the murderers to kill people, but it is okay for the state to kill people. Our prison system is certainly a wreck, and I think that the best thing to do is to make it a highly controlled environment, heavy on discipline. Think "boot camp," but maybe not so laborious. But when the prison guards tend to become as abusive as the prisoners, there's the problem. FYI, due to constitutionally-ensured appeals protections, it costs more to execute a prisoner than it does to imprison him for live without chance of parole.

But like I've mentioned, in terms of stopping abortions, there should be more to encourage women to not have them, rather than to just push for a legal ban. Perhaps tax incentives for adoption and health care programs for pregnant women? That would be a start. Right now, at least, the climate in America is far too encouraging towards abortions rather than adoptions.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 07-10-2004, 10:08 PM   #134
War Child
 
BluberryPoptart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 532
Local Time: 10:34 AM
It's not only the cost of the prisoner, it's his life. Take that sniper kid. He's 19. He could easily live another 60 years at least. That is not only a lot of money to feed and house him, he has a life! He can watch TV, play ball, get online, interact with loved ones. I don't think a person who has so brutally and intentionally taken the lives of others and has even bragged of taking pleasure in it and showing no remorse deserves all those years of life when the ones he victimized are dead and gone. It's also a danger because if he escaped, he'd do it again, he's already said he would! There have been cases of mass murderers breaking out. They are usually caught again, but think, why would they hesitate to killl again? What's one more life? So that is a danger too. The sniper kid didn't get death because of his age, but the other guy did. IMO, he deserved death more than the older guy because he is the one who pulled the trigger more often, and he is the one who has bragged and laughed about the killings.

About the adoption thing, I don't know why it isn't more popular since some childless couples have money and are willing to pay!
__________________
BluberryPoptart is offline  
Old 07-10-2004, 10:11 PM   #135
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 19,271
Local Time: 04:34 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon
I don't see the GOP pushing to do anything really "pro-family," aside from carefully calculated political moves designed to beat upon unpopular sexual minorities.
You know, that reminds me of something that kinda adds to everything you're saying here about a more pro-family thing. This isn't the case in this thread so much, but have you noticed that some of the people in this country who are pro-life are also deadset against homosexuals adopting children? They're willing to sit there and demand that if you don't want the child, to put it up for adoption, but then they also refuse to let a portion of the people in this country adopt those same children because they don't agree with the people's sexual orientation.

That does not make a bit of sense to me. If you're going to promote the idea of adoption, then you had better not be restricting the number of people who can adopt the children (the only obvious restriction necessary being not allowing criminals or people along those lines to adopt children).

Quote:
Originally posted by melon
The difference between a Catholic high school and a public high school is that the public school girls are more likely to carry the teen pregnancies to term. I knew seven girls in my HS who had an abortion, and, frankly, while I wouldn't condone it ever, I can see why they had them. The few girls who kept their babies were the object of ridicule.
No kidding-it's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. If the girl keeps the baby, she gets yelled at, if she aborts it, she's also yelled at.

Also, ditto what you said regarding the death penalty.

Angela
__________________

__________________
Moonlit_Angel is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com