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Old 07-07-2004, 10:27 PM   #61
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No, it's taking a life that is developing. Again, it is not a full-fledged baby from the moment it's conceived.
I know someone who was born over three months pre-mature and he lived a normal, healthy, and extremely athletic life. I've also seen images of aborted babies (rather, pieces of them) definitely developed enough to survive. Today I listened to a baby's heartbeat at 9 weeks.
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Old 07-07-2004, 11:00 PM   #62
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I should know better than to let Jessica lure me into this subforum.

Abortion... eh, what an awful topic for debate.

Regardless of my personal views on abortion, I won't be the one to tell a woman that she has to carry her rapist's baby for nine months, at possible risk to her own life. Imagine if she and the baby are lost to complications at birth - a rape victim practically sentenced to death by the government.

One of the things that really bothers me about a ban on abortion is that it's really only a ban for the poor. Think about it. If Mr. Millionaire's daughter gets pregnant by her high school sweetheart, how fast do you think she'll be on the next plane to Canada? That's assuming the "family doctor" doesn't come in and do the deed himself. A ban on abortion would be a ban on poor people having abortions. Period.

Another thing that bothers me is the motive. The top brass in the republican party is against abortion for two reasons.

1) More votes! I have met SO many people who have either become republicans because of the abortion issue, or who hold their nose and vote republican because of it. That's a lot of free, guaranteed votes, just for saying you're against something.

2) More troops! When poor people can no longer have abortions, what happens to the resulting children? They join the military! Well, some of them do at least. Banning abortions provides a steady supply of troops for the US military.

Most of the replies here are a bit better than the usual abortion debate I've read through. At least most of the people on the other side agree that birth control is needed. I can't count the number of times I've spoken to "Pro-Life" people who are not only against abortion, but also against anything that might prevent unwanted pregnancies. It amounts to being opposed to any non-reproductive sex. Sorry, but I don't think humans are ready to give up their sex just yet.
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Old 07-07-2004, 11:09 PM   #63
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
I've also seen images of aborted babies (rather, pieces of them) definitely developed enough to survive.
Several years ago I went over to a friend's house to watch the superbowl. When I got there, his girlfriend (a nurse) was extremely upset.

As it turns out, several "Pro-Life" people were apprehended while sneaking into the hospital (in fake hospital clothing, no less) to photograph a pregnant woman who was killed in an auto accident, so that they could use pictures of the fetus on anti-abortion posters. Apparently someone at the hospital was helping them.

Whenever I see posters with pictures like that, I think about that day, and I realize that without context, the photos mean nothing. Unless you know the exact circumstance, there's no way to know whether something could have survived.
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Old 07-07-2004, 11:21 PM   #64
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Another thing that bothers me is the motive. The top brass in the republican party is against abortion for two reasons.

Just to make this crystal clear, my views on abortion have nothing to do with my political party, my religion, or my views on sexuality.


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Whenever I see posters with pictures like that, I think about that day, and I realize that without context, the photos mean nothing. Unless you know the exact circumstance, there's no way to know whether something could have survived.
I'm aware that there are radial pro-lifers out there, just like there are radical pro-choicers out there. The images I saw were signed and stamped authentic documents.
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Old 07-07-2004, 11:44 PM   #65
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All I've got to say about fetus photos is that they are about as acceptable as posting photos of Iraqis killed by errant American bombs during Gulf War II.

I'll leave it at that. Personally, I'm no longer disgusted by anything, in terms of photography. I took a forensic science class a few years back and saw slides of decomposing bodies and a particularly gruesome murder-suicide. Interesting, but not for the squeamish, most assuredly.

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Old 07-08-2004, 12:24 AM   #66
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I would like to thank you all for only confirming my belief against women choosing to have an abortion.
First, you say it's taking the life that is developing. This only helps me since you even mention the one key word. Notice, it isn't the leg that is developing, or the nose, it is the LIFE!!!

Next, I always love the great reasons, financial, unplanned, etc. I recall learning at a public school in 7th grade that the only 100 % way to prevent pregnancy is by abstaining from sex. It is a choice and the consequences most likely are known. Sex is pretty much the only way to get pregnant (I said pretty much).

On to the tougher issues. Rape, incest, and possibly the hardest, complications w/ birth or deformations of a child.
This is so hard because you have to feel empathy for those who do get raped or have to decide whether or not their life is worth risking for their child.

I'll start with the complications. When one makes the choice to have a child, there are risks just like there are potential risks any time one undergoes a major procedure in a hospital. Not to mention, it is a life.

Rape or Incest: I often wonder; Is it fair to kill one life to help one deal with their pain? How far does this go then? I do not deny that rape is a horrible HORRIBLE thing. I hate it! But a life is a life and this child could still have a great one!

Someone said that in the beginning a fetus is just a lump of cells. So are we. We are just a lump of cells if you think about it. Yet, our LIVES have developed quite well I'd assume.
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Old 07-08-2004, 12:36 AM   #67
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As long as the anti-abortion crowd is against the death penalty, then I can effectively admire your lack of hypocrisy. For those who are anti-abortion and pro-death penalty, connect the dots from the previous sentence.

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Old 07-08-2004, 07:40 AM   #68
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Originally posted by melon
As long as the anti-abortion crowd is against the death penalty, then I can effectively admire your lack of hypocrisy. For those who are anti-abortion and pro-death penalty, connect the dots from the previous sentence.

Melon
The death penalty is also rediculous.
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Old 07-08-2004, 07:41 AM   #69
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Originally posted by melon
As long as the anti-abortion crowd is against the death penalty, then I can effectively admire your lack of hypocrisy. For those who are anti-abortion and pro-death penalty, connect the dots from the previous sentence.

Melon
There is a huge difference between an innocent baby and a cold blooded murderer or a vicious serial killer. The death penalty is reserved for only the most heinous of murderous crimes. There has to be some kind of deterrant! No one who would take someone else's life on purpose deserves to keep their own. The baby has done nothing wrong, hasn't even had a chance!
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Old 07-08-2004, 08:06 AM   #70
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Originally posted by BluberryPoptart
There is a huge difference between an innocent baby and a cold blooded murderer or a vicious serial killer. The death penalty is reserved for only the most heinous of murderous crimes. There has to be some kind of deterrant! No one who would take someone else's life on purpose deserves to keep their own. The baby has done nothing wrong, hasn't even had a chance!
See? Like I said before, the "pro-life" crowd generally only selectively values life. Jesus did not support the death penalty, and He was also a victim of it--an innocent man executed by the Roman state. I'm sure the Pharisees saw the value of such a deterrant too.

This is why I have little problem with liberal interpretations of Christianity, because the conservative interpretation makes just as many leaps in logic to suit their ideology.

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Old 07-08-2004, 08:23 AM   #71
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I do not label myself as pro-life, only opposed to abortion.

Do you label yourself as pro-choice? If you do, are you pro EVERY choice a person could make? If not, don't call anyone else a hypocrite, because you are the same. If you're going to get picky, it goes both ways.

Personally I find both labels ridiculous and inaccurate as well as hypocritical.
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Old 07-08-2004, 08:28 AM   #72
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The "choice" in "pro-choice" obviously refers to the "choice" to have an abortion or not, whereas "pro-life" has been co-opted to cover opposition to the death penalty, euthanasia, eugenics, etc. That's common parlance particularly among Catholics, who, if they are strict about following what the Vatican says, MUST be both anti-abortion and anti-death penalty.

Saying that someone who is pro-choice on the abortion issue must also be, say, pro-serial killing or pro-heroin because both are choices an individual could theoretically make is about as ridiculous as saying no pro-life person would ever step on an ant.
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Old 07-08-2004, 08:36 AM   #73
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Originally posted by melon


I'll leave it at that. Personally, I'm no longer disgusted by anything, in terms of photography. I took a forensic science class a few years back and saw slides of decomposing bodies and a particularly gruesome murder-suicide. Interesting, but not for the squeamish, most assuredly.

Maybe it's b/c I'm a woman and have a natural mothering instinct, but no matter how many disgusting, disturbing things we see these days, images and death records of dismembered babies is just NEVER ok with me b/c there is no way anyone can convince me that that baby deserved what s/he got. Just b/c we see so many awful things these days doesn't make it any less sad.

Anyway, I agree, you can't be anti-abortion and pro-death penalty.

Again, I do not "selectively" value life. The death penalty is just as horrid to me.
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Old 07-08-2004, 08:40 AM   #74
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Originally posted by melon


See? Like I said before, the "pro-life" crowd generally only selectively values life. Jesus did not support the death penalty, and He was also a victim of it--an innocent man executed by the Roman state. I'm sure the Pharisees saw the value of such a deterrant too.

This is why I have little problem with liberal interpretations of Christianity, because the conservative interpretation makes just as many leaps in logic to suit their ideology.

Melon
Why does these keep returning to Christianity-bashing? Some of us are pro-life b/c abortion is wrong, period. Sure, Christianity may also share the same view, but that doesn't mean it's the reasoning behind our views. I know people who are not religious and still vehemently oppose abortion.
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Old 07-08-2004, 09:08 AM   #75
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most people i know who are pro-life are anti-deathy penalty as well, so enough of the blanket generalizations.
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