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Old 07-06-2004, 07:08 PM   #46
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Originally posted by U2Kitten




But again, 98% of all US abortions are NOT due to rape, incest or heath reasons.
Let's say this number is true, so these women have to die, or these little girls have to live with a pregnacy because some sicko raped her?

Look I agree it's abused, every system is. But not everyone is using this as a means of birth control or convience.

Every women's fertility is different, birth control is not 100% and not found everywhere, and sex education is still very poor in this country considering it's 2004.

No one in here has even come close to saying anyone is "better off dead."
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Old 07-06-2004, 07:16 PM   #47
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Re: Got cite?

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Originally posted by wolfeden



Now, about yours.....?


Heh. I thought not.
When did I ever say anything about that? I disapprove of late term abortion, yes, but I never said it was in high percentages. I said what was in high percentages was abortions for reasons other than rape, incest, or health reasons. I never mentioned a trimester.

As I said in the last post, I am not going to fight about this anymore, I am too emotional over it and it really tears me up to see people defending this. The thread can only get more heated and end up getting closed if I continue to say the things I want to say.
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Old 07-06-2004, 07:21 PM   #48
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


and sex education is still very poor in this country considering it's 2004.
Then why does my daughter's fourth grade 'family life' program go into so much graphic detail? What do you know about sex ed? I know a lot of kids and teens in school now, some in very conservative towns, and they get it. Besides, it's all over TV and in the streets. Every kid knows where babies come from by the time they are 8. This isn't the 50's.

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No one in here has even come close to saying anyone is "better off dead."
It sure looks that way to me with the excuses and scenarios that are being presented.

Please, I promised a couple people I would not post on this anymore, I'll have to do it for them if not my own good.

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Old 07-06-2004, 07:34 PM   #49
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Then why does my daughter's fourth grade 'family life' program go into so much graphic detail? What do you know about sex ed? I know a lot of kids and teens in school now, some in very conservative towns, and they get it. Besides, it's all over TV and in the streets. Every kid knows where babies come from by the time they are 8. This isn't the 50's.

No it isn't the 50's. What do I know about sex ed? Hmm, let me see about 7 of the women in my family are school teachers all over the southwest, including my mother. I've myself been involved in sex ed programs through the church.

Yes the TV and streets that's who I want teaching my kids. Yes they may know where babies come from but that's not enough. I know teenage girls who think having unprotected sex during certain times of her cycle is fine, that the pull out method is safe, that oral sex won't spread disease. Our society is far too prude about human sexuality to educate our children properly. We're still in the mindset that providing birth control to kids who come and ask for it is promoting sex. NEWSFLASH teenage sex needs no promotion, they will explore sex with or without anyone's help. I'll end my sex ed rant now and let people get back to the yelling.
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Old 07-06-2004, 07:50 PM   #50
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Originally posted by U2Kitten
If I've made some of you feel uncomfortable with the things I said, maybe you should think about it.
Two things.

Preaching and condemnation from a moral pulpit really doesn't sit well with me because it usually says a lot more about the person doing the preaching than the intended audience.

Second, if this is your preferred method of communication, you may consider that you will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

I'm not extremely passionate about this topic, to be honest, so as somebody looking in, I can tell you that if you want people to think about something, there are considerably more effective ways to do so.
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Old 07-07-2004, 06:38 AM   #51
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I will tell you, that the misnomer "partial birth abortion", which is not a term used by the medical profession but was coined by the Republican anti-choice coalition, refers to a procedure used incredibly rarely, and always in the saddest and most difficult of times.
Thank you. That's exactly right.

Also, I don't care if the percentage of people who have abortions due to rape or incest or whatever is 2% or 95%, the point is, there are women out there who do use it for that purpose, and small number or not, the choice should still remain.

And besides that, even if their reasons have nothing to do with those kinds of things, it's still their choice. People don't have to agree, or understand, or whatever, but they should not stop the woman from having that choice available to them, just as people shouldn't stop a woman from choosing to put their baby up for adoption or keep their baby.

Angela
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Old 07-07-2004, 11:32 AM   #52
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
And besides that, even if their reasons have nothing to do with those kinds of things, it's still their choice. People don't have to agree, or understand, or whatever, but they should not stop the woman from having that choice available to them
At what point should the choice be taken away? The third trimester? 6 months old? 5 years old? Remember, the choice your are talking about is taking a life.
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Old 07-07-2004, 06:07 PM   #53
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At what point should the choice be taken away? The third trimester? 6 months old? 5 years old? Remember, the choice your are talking about is taking a life.
Good call!

My opinions on abortion are the most absolute opinions I have on anything. To me, abortion is ALWAYS ALWAYS WRONG. Yes, rape and incest are unthinkably horrible experiences, but no child should have to pay. I'm very very sorry, but two wrongs don't ever make one right. I've done some research on abortion and after some of the pictures I saw (even of the first trimester abortions) I could NEVER EVER do that to a baby even if I were raped, or my own life was at risk. I don't buy the whole "but the pregnant mother might die if she delivers the baby" excuse b/c I feel that when a woman makes the decision to become a mother, part of that decision involves bringing that baby safely into the world AT ANY COST. We hear and say all thge time "I'd die for you", but do we? By saying that pro-lifers are passing judgement on people, how is an individual deciding who has the right to live or die a lesser form of judgement? Why does an individual's right to make a choice supercede a baby's right to LIVE? Some please answer that question. Why?

I'm not trying to blow off how hard the decision to have an abortion is, but we should be looking at the root of the issue: why are some people in such a position that they have to make this choice? Two of my friends who I've known since birth have gotten pregnant and honestly the only emotion I will allow is happiness because they'll have these beautiful babies. I just can't feel sorry for them when they've made the choice to screw around and now are faced with the consequences (I really hate to use that word when refering to a baby but I can't think of another word).

And don't tell me I'm preaching from a moral pulpit. I'm preaching from what I believe inside the very core of myself and from what I know and what I've seen. I don't care if no one else here agrees with me.

EDIT: I don't believe that the choice to have an abortion and the choice to put a child up for adoption are comparable. When you put a child up for adoption, you do it so that your child can have a better life. Killing a child is hardly a "better" solution.
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Old 07-07-2004, 07:17 PM   #54
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
I don't buy the whole "but the pregnant mother might die if she delivers the baby" excuse b/c I feel that when a woman makes the decision to become a mother, part of that decision involves bringing that baby safely into the world AT ANY COST.
What do you mean you don't "buy" it? You don't find it medically acceptable? Well, I can tell you I know a person in my family whose baby was not going to survive the birth (there are many reasons, look up encelopathy as one, where the baby has no brain and will live for an average of less than 20 hours), and this also placed the mother's life at great risk. She had other children and of course she elected an abortion and I don't see why that was a wrong decision. Should she die in total vain?

As for not having compassion for anyone in this situation, is that the victory Jesus won?
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Old 07-07-2004, 07:47 PM   #55
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Originally posted by anitram


What do you mean you don't "buy" it? You don't find it medically acceptable? Well, I can tell you I know a person in my family whose baby was not going to survive the birth (there are many reasons, look up encelopathy as one, where the baby has no brain and will live for an average of less than 20 hours), and this also placed the mother's life at great risk. She had other children and of course she elected an abortion and I don't see why that was a wrong decision. Should she die in total vain?
I saw a story on the news about a woman who was told early in her pregnancy that the baby would be born without a brain and would pass away soon after birth. The doctor recommended abortion. The woman refused and carried the baby to term knowing he wasn't going to live so she could donate his organs to other babies and give them life. His heart, lungs and liver saved the lives of other babies. What a beautiful and selfless gift that woman gave. What a beautiful way for her baby to live on.

I don't know the situation but I can't understand why giving birth to a baby without a brain would be any more dangerous than giving birth to a normal baby.

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As for not having compassion for anyone in this situation, is that the victory Jesus won?
Where's the compassion for the child? Thou shalt not kill!

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Originally posted by nbcrusader
the choice your are talking about is taking a life.
Exactly No amount of choice rhetoric will ever blot that fact out.
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Old 07-07-2004, 09:23 PM   #56
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Sounds like socialism to me. Sorry, I don't believe the government has to pay for everything before a child's life is worth something. If they did all that, isn't that just the same as being on 'welfare?'
Socialism!!!!!!!!!! What exactly is so bad about socialism? We in Canada happen to pride ourselves on our social programs (education, health care for everyone etc.) and we seem to be doing OK last time I checked. Sure we pay more taxes, but we think it's worth it. What else is the government for other than to support its populace?

The point was not that they had to pay for everything to make the child's life worth something. The point is it helps the mother to cope, leaving her with more options, and a better ability to care for the child so she doesn't need to feel desperate enough for an abortion. Good social programs and welfare have absolutely nothing to do with each other. I have a good job, but if I want to go to the hospital and not pay anything, does that mean I'm on welfare? This makes no sense.

Anyway, good for John Kerry. Carry on....
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Old 07-07-2004, 09:31 PM   #57
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
At what point should the choice be taken away? The third trimester? 6 months old? 5 years old?
It shouldn't be taken away at all. Personally, I would agree that if a woman's going to have an abortion, it'd be better to do it early on in the pregnancy. But I also know that there's still things that can happen late in the pregnancy that would warrant her having an abortion, so the choice should remain open the whole 9 months.

Quote:
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Remember, the choice your are talking about is taking a life.
No, it's taking a life that is developing. Again, it is not a full-fledged baby from the moment it's conceived.

Angela
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Old 07-07-2004, 09:34 PM   #58
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
No, it's taking a life that is developing. Again, it is not a full-fledged baby from the moment it's conceived.
even after birth, the life is still developing. why is abortion ok the day before a baby is born versus the day after?
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Old 07-07-2004, 09:46 PM   #59
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Originally posted by Screaming Flower
even after birth, the life is still developing. why is abortion ok the day before a baby is born versus the day after?
By "developing", I mean that it's getting all its necessary organs developed and stuff. That's what I was getting at. You are right, after it's born, it still develops into a child, teen, adult, but I was referring to its organs and stuff developing. Sorry for the confusion.

Now, I'll definitely grant you that there's not really any difference the day before birth and the day after, and by then I would assume that any potential problems would've been taken care of long before then, and if there aren't any, then it should be okay and the pregnancy should continue on as planned.

Angela
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Old 07-07-2004, 09:54 PM   #60
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
By "developing", I mean that it's getting all its necessary organs developed and stuff. That's what I was getting at. You are right, after it's born, it still develops into a child, teen, adult, but I was referring to its organs and stuff developing. Sorry for the confusion.
not to keep dwelling on this ( ), but the necessary organs are developed relatively early. doctors can detect brain activity by the sixth week. all the organs are already in place by the eight week, and the organs are functioning by the tenth or eleventh week. and the saddest part to me - the baby can feel pain by the twelfth week.
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