Senator Kerry: Personal beliefs vs. legislation

[BAW]

wolfeden and Mrs. Edge

Originally posted by Mrs. Edge
But even if they *were* all guilty....I thought the whole point of being pro-life was that you were supposed to be protecting ALL life at any cost and that every life has value? Because if we get to pick and choose then the same rules should apply to the embryo that threatens the life of an innocent rape victim for example.

Exactly. Not generalize or make a blanket statement, but the most ardent pro-life/anti-abortion people I have met are also some of the most ardent supporters of the death penalty. They are more than happy to show horrible photos of an aborted fetus to prove that taking a life is wrong yet they happily join the ?burn baby burn? crowd when a killer is executed.

How can you have it both ways?

I really wonder (and this is not directed at you, it's just a continuation of the thought), what some of the people in here who are soooooo principled - they wouldn't ever THINK about an abortion (especially if it doesn't affect them personally!) would do if someone they loved - a wife, daughter, sister - faced serious complications or death as a result of an unwanted pregnancy, or even a wanted one for that matter. Wouldn't they want to do anything to save her life?

Its very easy to say you would NEVER consider abortion if you haven?t been faced with this decision but until it happens to you or someone you love, you don?t REALLY know what you would do. I HAVE been in that situation (in a wanted pregnancy). Thank God my son and I are both alive but if the risky option I chose to treat the complication had not been successful, my choices were (a) abort and save my life so I could be around to raise my 2 year old son or (b) continue the pregnancy, let the complication take its course and prepare for my baby?s inevitable death along with my own.

To be brutally honest, leaving my 2 year old without a mother was not an option I was willing to take. So there, you can see what course I would have taken.

Would they actually be able to believe that a collection of cells, perhaps those from a rapist, is ultimately more important than the love of their life...a fully fledged living, feeling woman?

I certainly hope not.

I do not believe abortion should be used as a form of birth control but taking away the option completely is a very scary prospect to me. Even birth control used perfectly fails sometimes and I don?t see what good can come from forcing someone who doesn?t want a child to carry one for 9 months and raise it with resentment for the next 18 years. Adoption would be the ideal solution of course but not every woman is emotionally capable of doing it?and what kind of life is a child who is unwanted from the moment of conception going to have? Is that fair to him/her? You can say ?well at least he has a chance to grow up and be someone? but being unwanted during your most formative years leaves a lifetime of scars that never completely heal.

I agree that late term abortion should be limited or not used at all?I can?t think of very many situations that would call for it. A first trimester fetus cannot survive outside the womb?second trimester is the gray area and I have qualms about it being used then other than in the most extreme cases. Not knowing you are pregnant or changing your mind are not viable reasons.

I also don?t think a woman?s economic status has much to do with her decision to have an abortion?women of all ages, economic backgrounds and marital status choose to end their pregnancies. As a matter of fact, married Caucasian women make up a good percentage of women who choose this option in the US. Maybe it is done mainly for selfish reasons?so maybe its not so horrible that certain women choose not to become mothers or have more children than they can handle?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Not speaking for Angela, but you have to draw the line SOMEWHERE, and I would say there should be priority in lifesaving for a fully functioning adult over an up to 9 month old fetus/baby if necessary to save the mother's life!

Obviously the older the fetus gets, the worse the situation is. No one is saying it's a pleasant option. But the mother can have more children. Once the mother's gone, that's it.

Thank you. You put it a lot better than me (I'm trying to explain this in a way that makes sense...basically, yeah, what Mrs. Edge said).

to the rest of Mrs. Edge's posts, along with wolfeden's and BAW's.

Angela

 

[Mrs. Edge]

Saving a mother's life is a separate issue as it is a generally accepted defense to murder (even from Biblical times).

Killing for convenience still has no rational dividing line.

I thought the main issue we were raising WAS saving the mother's life? The point is that people are saying under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should abortion be allowed, and I/we are saying that the option must be left open in case you need to save the mother's life, or certain rape/incest cases. Another thing I forgot to mention, girls as young as 9 are getting their periods now. Can anyone expect a 9 year old who has been the victim of incest to carry a baby to term? It's just cruel and unusual punishment.

Anyway, of course no one is advocating "killing for convenience", and certainly there is no rational dividing line there, I totally agree. Abortion is a last ditch measure in extreme circumstances.

 

[Wild Angel]

Okay, so you're saying a happily married mother of 3 kids should LET HERSELF DIE for, say, a misdeveloped product of gestation that can't even be called a fetus (a birth "defect" called a hyatidiform mole, where the genetic tissue does not form a human body), the birth process of which can cause the mother to bleed to death, or an anencephalic (developed without a brain or spinal chord) fetus with a complication of severe pre-eclampsia and gestational diabetes?

Educate yourself on the reality of these things - the true hazards and complications of pregnancy, labor, and delivery, before you pronounce yourself judge, jury and executioner to these women.

And with your point of view, I hope you never have to go through it yourself, looking your own kids in the eye as you tell them Mommy's going to die because she doesn't believe in abortion.....

would do if someone they loved - a wife, daughter, sister - faced serious complications or death as a result of an unwanted pregnancy, or even a wanted one for that matter. Wouldn't they want to do anything to save her life?

These worst case hypothetical situations take attention away from the fact that most abortions are for convenience only. There are even some stores that refuse returns if the only reason is that you don't want it.

There will never be a law that prevents abortions for health issues, there is no need to even bring it up. It's not going to happen!

But don't be so sure getting an abortion will save the woman's life! She could also die during the abortion! Any time there is anesthesia, there is a risk of death! Abortion, unlike childbirth, is not a natural process so there is more risk of bleeding. There is no perfect solution!

 

[BluberryPoptart]

don't be so sure getting an abortion will save the woman's life! She could also die during the abortion! Any time there is anesthesia, there is a risk of death! Abortion, unlike childbirth, is not a natural process so there is more risk of bleeding. There is no perfect solution!

That's true, don't think because someone gets the abortion instead of carrying the child to term it is safe. Late term abortions are a lot more risky to the mother, and that's why so many doctors refuse to do them. More than the moral issues, they are afraid of the woman dying, or her fertility being destroyed, and then they'd be sued.

 

[anitram]

She could also die during the abortion! Any time there is anesthesia, there is a risk of death! Abortion, unlike childbirth, is not a natural process so there is more risk of bleeding. There is no perfect solution!

That's a really lame argument, because if we were to follow that, then as abortions carry a risk of death, so do tooth extractions, appendectomies, ingrown toe removals, etc. As for childbirth beign a "natural" process, it would be interesting to compare statistics of abortion caused complications vs. childbirth caused complications, things like pre-eclampsia, Rh-incompatibility, and so on. Let us also remember, after a woman gives birth, it takes roughly 3 years for her body (chemically) to get back into the balanced state it was prior to the pregnancy. This is argued to be one of the main factors decreasing life expectancy of women who have given birth vs. those who have not.

If you want to talk medical facts, it is my educated opinion that you will not make a solid argument that childbirth is safer than abortion.

 

[BluberryPoptart]

When's the last time you ever heard of a lady in a civilized country dying in childbirth? Rh factor is no factor. The first child is always ok, then you get a rhogam to prevent further problems. My mother had Rh factor, had 4 kids, no problem.

It's only if a lady is negative and the father of the baby is positive. If you have negative blood, you will be given a rhogam. My sister is negative, but her husband is negative too, so technically she should not have to worry. But the doctor told her, suppose your husband is not the father of your next child? You never know. They made her take the injection for a precaution. A lot of the things being brought up here are things that are so old fashioned and rare, it's getting ridiculous.

 

[BluberryPoptart]

Oh, and if you get an abortion or have a miscarriage, you still have to get the rhogam, because the baby's blood was released into the mother's system and her body might try to develop antibodies to it, which will cause any future kids, if allowed to live, to be affected. The same thing happens whether or not the baby is carried to term, because it was always a baby.

 

[anitram]

I know about rhogam as I am an immunologist, LOL. Therefore I can tell you all about compatibilities and statistics. However, I would suggest you do some research on RhD intrauterine deaths, RhD hemolytic disease in infants, RhD incompatibilities resulting in massive feto-maternal hemorrhaging, neonatal PlA1 alloimmune thrombocytopenia, and many other immuno-incompatibilieties.

 

[BluberryPoptart]

It is so sad when someone loses a baby, it's especially sad since so many people get rid of their perfectly healthy babies. I have a friend who has had 2 miscarriages in the last 6 months. She has been diagnosed with one of those immune problems. Her body is attacking the baby as a foreign object and killing it. She's devastated. I hope there is some treatment to help her carry a baby full term

 

[wolfeden]

When's the last time you ever heard of a lady in a civilized country dying in childbirth?

2003, and the couple were people I "spoke" to online from Britain. Young folks, married, in their mid-20s.
Now he's raising their baby alone.
Thanks for asking.

I wonder, what countries and peoples of this Earth are you calling "uncivilized", and how do you mean it? Were you referring to "developing countries" l

Perhaps by "civilized" you meant "wealthy"? Or "technologically advanced"? money does not automatically confer civility, as most of the world knows when dealing with Americans.

There is a serious problem in America and much of the so-called "civilized countries" regarding the withholding of the truth about the complications of pregnancy, labor and delivery. Looking at the amount of sheer misinformation being displayed in this thread is showing just how pervasive a problem it is.
An excerpt from the US Gov't Maternal & Child Health Bureau:

In 2000, the maternal mortality rate for non-Hispanic Black women (22.3 per 100,000 live births) was greater than three times the rate for non-Hispanic White women (6.8 per 100,000 live births) and more than twice the rate for Hispanic women (9.9 per 100,000 live births).

The risk of maternal death increases with age. In 2000, women aged 35 and older had nearly three times the risk of death as women aged 25-29 (22.7 and 7.9 per 100,000 live births, respectively). Black women aged 35 and older had the highest rate of maternal mortality of approximately 63 deaths per 100,000 live births.

source
Maternal health problems associated with pregnancy, MCHB

I also recommend SafeMotherhood.org for access to global figures and facts rather than just United States as above -- and why America needs to preserve as many women's health options as possible -- TO AVOID our statistics becoming as dismal and horrifying as those of the developing countries of the world.

 

[RocknRollKitty]

.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Angela, can I just double check, you think a late term abortion at 6/7/8 months is a mother's choice if there are no percieved health risks but she just 'changes her mind'?
I can't see how this can even be debated once the pregnancy has passed viability.

 

[U2girl]

(even though I'd said I won't be back in FYM this thread with its 7 pages intrigued me)

Mrs Edge, Moonlit_angela and Wolfeden, great points.

Abortion is always a touchy topic and I guess it's hard to really talk if one hasn't been in such a situation, and I would think it depends on each pregnancy's specifics.

As a person and a female, I agree that abortion should be a choice. Not the first choice, not the only choice, but a choice in extreme cases after you tried everything else (for example medical reasons when either baby's or mother's life is threatened). I would not allow myself to judge anyone who chooses it, because it is THEIR life and they make the decisions in it. One of women's important rights is the decision WHEN she will have babies.

But to say it's "convenient" or "birth control" is cold and harsh to the women who took that choice. The worst of all is calling it "murder" - do not compare an unborn embrio to a fully developed human/born child and a woman to a cold-blooded killer.
No one will be facing the consequences of that decision more than they will and I'm sure no one did more soul-searching and deep thinking more than they did.

It's interesting how our civilization (well, certain countries anyway), so loudly advocating life, has no problem killing people in certain criminal/legal circumstances.

 

[BluberryPoptart]

Wolfeden, when I say 'civilized' I mean a country where health care and prenatal care are good and widely available. Since the abortion proponents always have to grab at straws for extreme worst case scenarios for evidence, I totally expected someone to post stats from some country where dying in childbirth may be common, but dying from dysentary or the flu is also common and people die of things like typhoid that are eradicated in most parts of the world.

Ususally these days if it happens, there are other circumstances such as underlying health problems or injuries. When I read a couple years ago that the wife of an NFL player had died in childbirth I was shocked, this doesn't happen in America, especially not to rich people. It turns out she'd had a car accident earlier in the day in which the steering wheel pressed into her chest, but she did a hit and run and never reported in out of fear someone would sue her husband. So she went home and bled internally for hours and didn't even know it. That night she went into premature labor and she and the baby both passed away

But I do think this risk of dying if carrying a baby to term is exaggerated in all but the most rare cases. There is just as much chance of dying during an abortion so don't act like that's the way to save someone's life. And remember the old saying, only half of all patients who enter abortion clinics leave alive

 

[BluberryPoptart]

(even though I'd said I won't be back in FYM this thread with its 7 pages intrigued me)

Mrs Edge, Moonlit_angela and Wolfeden, great points.

Abortion is always a touchy topic and I guess it's hard to really talk if one hasn't been in such a situation, and I would think it depends on each pregnancy's specifics.

As a person and a female, I agree that abortion should be a choice. Not the first choice, not the only choice, but a choice in extreme cases after you tried everything else (for example medical reasons when either baby's or mother's life is threatened). I would not allow myself to judge anyone who chooses it, because it is THEIR life and they make the decisions in it. One of women's important rights is the decision WHEN she will have babies.

Ho hum more typical rhetoric. First of all, it's not just "HER" life, it's the baby's too. How about the decision WHEN to have a baby gets made BEFORE she gets pregnant? And don't hand me the old rape shit, that's an exception.

But to say it's "convenient" or "birth control" is cold and harsh to the women who took that choice. The worst of all is calling it "murder" - do not compare an unborn embrio to a fully developed human/born child and a woman to a cold-blooded killer.
No one will be facing the consequences of that decision more than they will and I'm sure no one did more soul-searching and deep thinking more than they did.

The reason so many people say there are too many abortions for 'convenience' is because most occur just because someone was too careless to use readily available birth control, or 'changed her mind.' You can't be so sure of all that 'soul searching' since some people have no conscience (or soul IMO!)

For me, saying "if you don't believe in it don't get one but don't stop someone else" is exactly the same as saying, well, if Jane wants to shoot the boss tonight, that's her choice, but I couldn't be the one to pull the trigger. Some things are very wrong and everyone should be stopped from doing them.

I can't in my own conscience think, oh well it's their business let them do what they want. If I believe it's wrong, I feel like I am letting the helpless unborn down by not speaking out!

It's interesting how our civilization (well, certain countries anyway), so loudly advocating life, has no problem killing people in certain criminal/legal circumstances.

I am completely stunned and at a loss at people comparing a criminal who has brutally killed one or more people with an unborn baby who never did anything at all. (If anything, the woman getting the abortion is much more in the category with the murderer than the baby!) The death penalty is only used in the most extreme of cases, people who have killed intentionally in cold blood in violent or grotesque ways. These people are determined to be a danger to society. There are some, and I am among them, who don't believe that someone who has so cruelly deprived others of their lives deserves to live out theirs, even in prison where they will have 3 meals a day, TV, computer, even ball games to play. They could live for years, sharing visits and letters with loved ones, something their victims will never get to do. They took lives, they do not deserve theirs.

 

[BluberryPoptart]

Angela, can I just double check, you think a late term abortion at 6/7/8 months is a mother's choice if there are no percieved health risks but she just 'changes her mind'?
I can't see how this can even be debated once the pregnancy has passed viability.

Neither can I If there was ever any doubt if abortion is murder, you'd think there would be no doubt after the baby is viable!

 

[Angela Harlem]

In this day and age there shouldn't need to be the option of having an abortion or not. Unless the girl is unbelievably stupid and not able to learn the basics of sex ed, it's rather simple. Keep your knickers on and your legs closed if you are not prepared to deal with the consequences. Am I unsympathetic to the mother? Yep. Tough titties. It is a rare case where the birth control has failed or the abortion is a result of rape. In any other case it IS the mother's responsibility and her duty to ensure it hadn't happened in the first place. Abortion doesn't need to be a solution to "whoops I fucked up" and should never be. Trick is to not fuck up in the first place. But I'm sure this point has already been argued in this thread.

 

[Mrs. Edge]

Yes there DOES need to be the option...in cases where it is absolutely necessary! There should be strict regulations but it still needs to be there!!!!!

Sure in an idealistic world birth control would work and people would keep their legs closed except when wanting to procreate but the world does not work that way!!!!!

I give up. Besides, I thought this thread was supposed to be about Kerry not enforcing his beliefs on people anyway

 

[Angela Harlem]

As I said, it is rare when the birth control doesn't work or the pregnancy is a result of rape. It is also not terribly often a mother's life is in danger. It does happen and I'm not even talking about those instances. So perhaps instead of rolling your eyes, re-read what I said. I said nothing about sex only for procreation. Complain about posts, but only when it is warranted for God's sake.

 

[BluberryPoptart]

In this day and age there shouldn't need to be the option of having an abortion or not. Unless the girl is unbelievably stupid and not able to learn the basics of sex ed, it's rather simple. Keep your knickers on and your legs closed if you are not prepared to deal with the consequences. Am I unsympathetic to the mother? Yep. Tough titties. It is a rare case where the birth control has failed or the abortion is a result of rape. In any other case it IS the mother's responsibility and her duty to ensure it hadn't happened in the first place. Abortion doesn't need to be a solution to "whoops I fucked up" and should never be. Trick is to not fuck up in the first place. But I'm sure this point has already been argued in this thread.

 

[BluberryPoptart]

As I said, it is rare when the birth control doesn't work or the pregnancy is a result of rape. It is also not terribly often a mother's life is in danger. It does happen and I'm not even talking about those instances. So perhaps instead of rolling your eyes, re-read what I said. I said nothing about sex only for procreation. Complain about posts, but only when it is warranted for God's sake.

Yes, I can't believe all these clinics are being kept in business by these extreme rare cases being presented. As someone posted, abortions for rape, incest, and health issues are only a very small percentage. NO the option does not need to be there just for people who 'change their mind' or can't control themselves sexually any better than a dog and refuse to be responsible about birth control!

 

[BluberryPoptart]

Sure in an idealistic world birth control would work and people would keep their legs closed except when wanting to procreate but the world does not work that way!!!!!

Gimme a break. If people are going to screw around, they could at least be careful, and too many aren't. The life the careless person created should not have to suffer for being a 'mistake.' I can't believe some people look at this as no more than rewinding a videotape or resetting a videogame when you're losing! Why can't people accept the responsibility for the life they created while being careless sexually?

I give up. Besides, I thought this thread was supposed to be about Kerry not enforcing his beliefs on people anyway

Any time the volatile issue of abortion is brought up, heated arguments are going to happen. It happens on every board I've ever been to, even political ones.

 

[Angela Harlem]

I dont know how many abortions occur just for the sake of it, but those I could never understand. I dont know either how often an abortion is the result of rape, risk to the mother, or the birth control not working and so on, but those are cases where anyone needs to have a whole lot of sympathy and a show of support for the woman who is facing that.
For the others where it is an unfortunate accident, it has tragic consequences. Too much care cannot be taken to prevent an abortion being a decision anyone has to make. The problem exists a good month before that. The solution isn't any more about having abortions than it is abstaining from sex. The solution is to up the amount of care we all take to save ourselves from ending up in that situation.

 

[wolfeden]

Indeed.
Since it's plainly obvious that some people prefer to keep their heads planted in the sand and would rather stand in judgement than read up on the medical facts, I'm done here.

Thank you John Kerry. You have my vote.

 

[BluberryPoptart]

Since you like reading up on medical facts here are some pics that might interest you.

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages/archive1.htm

It's time we showed the truth about what that 'choice' really is!

 

[U2girl]

*edit* Nevermind.

I don't have to or need to defend my opinion, especially not to an agressive tone you used, Blueberry poptart.

I did forget to add that maybe instead of judging/blaming/critisizing/singling out (it takes two to get pregnant) etc... the woman maybe it'd be nice to show compassion and offer support to her in those no doubt hard times she's going through.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

In this day and age there shouldn't need to be the option of having an abortion or not. Unless the girl is unbelievably stupid and not able to learn the basics of sex ed, it's rather simple. Keep your knickers on and your legs closed if you are not prepared to deal with the consequences. Am I unsympathetic to the mother? Yep. Tough titties. It is a rare case where the birth control has failed or the abortion is a result of rape. In any other case it IS the mother's responsibility and her duty to ensure it hadn't happened in the first place. Abortion doesn't need to be a solution to "whoops I fucked up" and should never be. Trick is to not fuck up in the first place. But I'm sure this point has already been argued in this thread.

Why is it the woman you single out for criticism? Surely both the man and woman should share responsibility for using suitable contraception.

That said, contraception is not 100% effective. That's not opinion, it's fact. Certainly people should take whatever precuations they can to ensure they don't find themselves in the position of having an unplanned pregnancy, but taking suitable precautions does not guarantee that the situation will not arise.

 

[Angela Harlem]

It's the middle of the night Fizz, I'm typing incomplete and half arsed replies in here I think contraception is the responsiblility of everyone involved in the act.
My personal views are also a lot more convoluted and hypocritical than I could ever express in a few words on a message board. I say hypocritical because I know that I feel differently about each circumstance, but as I have no idea on every circumstance, it is one of those things people can only speak about from their own experiences and perspectives etc.

 

[BluberryPoptart]

I did forget to add that maybe instead of judging/blaming/critisizing/singling out (it takes two to get pregnant) etc... the woman maybe it'd be nice to show compassion and offer support to her in those no doubt hard times she's going through.

Sorry I've had my share of oh poor me stories from people who purposely left their pills at home or were too drunk to take one and then whined about being in trouble. I have also known girls who got pregnant on purpose then 'changed their mind.' There is no way I believe all the abortion clinics are for the tragic, extreme cases some of you keep bringing up. Nope, not one ounce of compassion for girls who put themselves in bad situations then cried about it later. My compassion lies with the baby!

The only way for her to make it right is to follow through with the life she has started and take responsibility for it, or give it up for adoption.