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Old 07-06-2004, 02:41 PM   #31
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I have seen that 98% figure several places, I'm sure it's online somewhere too.

Birth control is available at all US local health departments

I am a woman, I have a cycle, I know how it works. That's why I have so little sympathy for 'unplanned' pregnancies. There is also such thing as refraining from having unprotected sex if you don't want to take the chance. There is also the risk of STDs and AIDS on top of pregnancy. Self control and responsibility are also factors for women AND men!

I'm mighty poor and live in trashy neighborhood, I am not on any kind of a 'high horse.' I think the people saying babies are better off dead if the mother is poor are the ones on a high horse
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Old 07-06-2004, 02:45 PM   #32
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Sounds like socialism to me. Sorry, I don't believe the government has to pay for everything before a child's life is worth something. If they did all that, isn't that just the same as being on 'welfare?'
So now if you support decent education and healthcare you're a socialist. My oh my, the debate really has moved to the right.

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You college girls, yuppies and happy suburbanites must think all of us below you are better off dead!
Who are you to make assumptions about someone's background based on what political positions they adopt? And just for the record, plenty of us "college girls" work harder than most people could imagine to be able to afford our college education. Don't assume that because someone is attending college they must come from an affluent background.
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Old 07-06-2004, 02:53 PM   #33
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Why am I wasting my breath.

People.

I will not stoop to posting links to gory photos.

I will tell you, that the misnomer "partial birth abortion", which is not a term used by the medical profession but was coined by the Republican anti-choice coalition, refers to a procedure used incredibly rarely, and always in the saddest and most difficult of times.

These fetuses are horrifically deformed; often they will not survive the birth process should they even survive to term, and all they would know is pain.
The bodies often lack anything resembling a recognizable face or skull; often there is no brain, or what there was of it formed outside of the body. Bones and tissue misdirect and swell into grotesque tangles of flesh; no horror movie has the power to swell your throat closed like the terror and sadness you feel at seeing what held such hope and promise gone so terribly wrong.
The mother is anesthetised during such a procedure -- so, by the grace of shared blood and body systems, is the fetus, assuming it even developed with a nervous system.

These women are not the much-maligned, fictitious "convenience abortion" consumers.

A woman undergoing a late-third-trimester abortion wanted that child very much, felt the kicks and bubbles at night and smiled, watched other children on the playground and cried watching diaper and formula commercials. Bought the first little sleeper and marveled at how tiny it seemed, the first little stockinette hat.

She was not ready for what that sonogram would show, she was not ready to walk out of what was supposed to be one of the last exciting visits before the big day feeling hollow and horrified, guilty and defective herself, reliving the three seconds over and over as the sonographer's face turned white and she abruptly turned the screen away and said "Igottagogetthedoctorberightback".....

Now she sits at home, hugging the round belly that the angel-baby has flown from, rocking and rocking in the chair she expected to sing lullabies to her brand new baby with two eyes and one tiny nose and ten fingers and ten toes, and she cries and cries and wonders what she did wrong, was it the half glass of wine she drank before she knew she was pregnant? did she walk in front of the xray machine at the airport with her husband?
the angel-baby is still in her heart, but the pictures the OBGYN showed her today of anencephaly, the condition her fetus developed with, are all that fills her mind now.

You people have no idea what that woman is going through, have no idea who ends up using that procedure, and no idea what it's actually for.
Yet you judge and say murder, murder.
Shame on you.
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Old 07-06-2004, 02:54 PM   #34
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


Who are you to make assumptions about someone's background based on what political positions they adopt? And just for the record, plenty of us "college girls" work harder than most people could imagine to be able to afford our college education. Don't assume that because someone is attending college they must come from an affluent background.
I know that, I know girls on PLEBA, and some cousins of mine who suffer with huge student loans and work very hard.

But I do believe some people who have had more financially secure lives than me don't understand what it's like to be poor and go on living, and how you can get by with less money and materialism. I find it insulting that some assume the babies of poor people are better off dead!
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Old 07-06-2004, 02:59 PM   #35
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Originally posted by U2Kitten
I have seen that 98% figure several places, I'm sure it's online somewhere too.

Birth control is available at all US local health departments
can you cite that source for us please?

otherwise... it doesn't mean anything, sorry.

And while you're making cracks about yuppies, college girls, and suburbanites -- I've been homeless twice, and I grew up in Roxbury, MA, don't start with me about growing up poor and in shitty neighborhoods.
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Old 07-06-2004, 03:06 PM   #36
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Originally posted by U2Kitten
But I do believe some people who have had more financially secure lives than me don't understand what it's like to be poor and go on living, and how you can get by with less money and materialism. I find it insulting that some assume the babies of poor people are better off dead!
I actually agree with you that people who come from affluent backgrounds often don't understand what it's like to be poor. Sticking with the college example, I can't stand hearing students whose parents pay their tuition fees and living expenses claiming that 100 a week (that's ~$180) isn't really too much for the university to charge for a room in hall, or that increasing fees by 3000 won't stop people from working class backgrounds going to university.

To get back to the subject though, I don't think it's fair to characterise pax's comments as assuming babies born into a poor family would be better off dead. That wasn't what she said at all and I think it's completely unfair to portray her comments in that way.
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Old 07-06-2004, 03:33 PM   #37
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I actually agree with you that people who come from affluent backgrounds often don't understand what it's like to be poor.

*nods*

...or the entitlement of the middle-upper-class who don't understand why a single mother on welfare can't "just get a sitter and go to work already".
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Old 07-06-2004, 05:26 PM   #38
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So the kid should die if she has to be on welfare?
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Old 07-06-2004, 05:32 PM   #39
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Oh never mind. I'm tired of having a few things taken out of context anyway. Forget the money thing! I've also seen some of you post that people want to get rid of babies because they interfere with 'careers' so it's not only the poor thing. I can't see how anyone can justify eliminating a healthy child for financial reasons, period. All I can see is death. You all jump all over one thing and ignore everything else I've said.

And all you asking for me to post stats, let's see you post some that prove me wrong!!
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Old 07-06-2004, 05:47 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Kitten
Oh never mind. I'm tired of having a few things taken out of context anyway. Forget the money thing! I've also seen some of you post that people want to get rid of babies because they interfere with 'careers' so it's not only the poor thing. I can't see how anyone can justify eliminating a healthy child for financial reasons, period. All I can see is death. You all jump all over one thing and ignore everything else I've said.

And all you asking for me to post stats, let's see you post some that prove me wrong!!
You complain that your comments are taken out of context and yet in your previous posts you've taken people's comments on possible reasons for women chosing abortion and inaccurately characterized them as "the kid should die if [the mother] is on welfare." Can you not see the hypocrisy there?
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Old 07-06-2004, 05:56 PM   #41
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it doesn't have a lot to do with money
it has to do with being emotionally able to support a child

opinions differ on when you can speak of a human life
I think that's probably the major point

all the more reasons to have laws that establish what we can and can not do
laws that take into account BOTH the sanctity of human life and the consequences of having people emotionally unable (for whatever reason) to deal with kids having them anyway
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Old 07-06-2004, 06:09 PM   #42
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Please everyone calm down and read a little more carefully.

As a Christian, a feminist, and the daughter of a mother who worked very hard with very little help to raise four children, I certainly do not feel that the children of poor mothers are better off dead. I feel, in fact, that the children of the poor deserve much more care and respect than they are currently given.
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Old 07-06-2004, 06:42 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Salome
it doesn't have a lot to do with money
it has to do with being emotionally able to support a child
Well spoken.
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Old 07-06-2004, 06:56 PM   #44
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Oh so now it's okay to kill it if you're not 'emotionally' ready? I can't stand it. These are lame reasons to stop a life. If anyone isn't ready for a kid, please, use birth control or have enough sense and responsibility not to have unprotected sex. This all makes me very sick and I can't stand it. I see I am too emotional over this to keep discussing it, I'm only going to get more upset. I can understand a lot of different opinions on a lot of things, but to me there is just no justification or rationalization for what abortion really is. Killing.

If I've made some of you feel uncomfortable with the things I said, maybe you should think about it.


If some of you think less of me for the things I've said, so be it.


I'm not going to post on this anymore because things will only get worse. This time I'm really leaving, for my own good.


Pax, I know you care about the poor.
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Old 07-06-2004, 07:02 PM   #45
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Got cite?

The Number of Abortions after the First Trimester Is Relatively Small

* Between 1997 and 2000, the number of abortions in the United States fell from 1,186,039 to 857,475 (CDC, 2000). The CDC estimates that 58 percent of legal abortions occur within the first eight weeks of gestation, and 88 percent are performed within the first 13 weeks. Only 1.4 percent occur after 20 weeks (CDC, 2000).

* Since the nationwide legalization of abortion in 1973, the proportion of abortions performed after the first trimester has decreased because of increased access to and knowledge about safe, legal abortion services (Gold, 1990).

CDC - Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. (2003, November 28). "Abortion Surveillance - United States, 2000." Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, 52(SS-12).

Gold, Rachel Benson. (1990). Abortion and Women's Health: A Turning Point for America? New York: The Alan Guttmacher Institute.

The Alan Guttmacher Institute also has many more up to the minute fact sheets, statistics, and reports on the international condition of family planning, from pregancy and contraception to HIV prevention, America, Africa, Asia and beyond. You may find the information there useful -- DATA does.


Now, about yours.....?


Heh. I thought not.
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